"Any interest in gaming ISIS?" Topic

Just curious if anyone has had the itch to try to wargame some of the recent ISIS battles, and if so, what sort of scenario, what scale, what figures, what rules?

These seem to be low-grade infantry battles, rather than the asymetrical or armor-heavy fights more often seen this region. But I'll admit I have little idea what ISIS or its adversaries are equipped with.

I have some figures ready for Syrian scenarios, and probably some suitable for the New Iraqi Army, but have not yet gotten to gaming it out. Personally, I would use Company Commander, Crossfire, or some equally claustrophobic CQB ruleset.

No interest at all.
How can you game a drone strike?

nah, no goblins in picklehaubes so it don't ring my jazz

Too much like The Day Job.

And no cocked hats, laced red coats, or port to be passed to the left…

Eric

How can you game a drone strike?

As a vastly more accurate artillery strike, I would imagine.

Personally, I would not be comfortable with such a game, myself, but horses for courses.

DDT

Too early … Too soon … And Drone strikes would game like very accurate CAS or Artillery …

Maybe it's all the posts recently around AK47, but that rule set comes to mind. Especially with the expansion on the lebanese civil war.

I think it covers well the mixture of skill and motivation levels, as well as various 'armies' (religious, super power baked, etc).

Not ISIS, although I would certainly game that, but the fighting in Gaza has brought some scenarios for Infinity to mind. They wouldn't be IDF and Hamas but probably Pan Oceana or Yu jing vs. Ariadna with the tech heavy force looking for underground weapons caches or tunnels.

Only if it's these guys:

No.

Too current for me. Friends and relations are too likely to be personally involved.

Darth- that's funny, that's exactly where my mind goes when ever I read "ISIS".

Friends and relations are too likely to be personally involved.

That's odd, as I would think most scenarios would be against Iraqi army or Kurdish forces.

Painting all those Toyota pick-ups would drive me crazy.

Beat me to it, Darth.

That's odd, as I would think most scenarios would be against Iraqi army or Kurdish forces.

This war has been going on in Syria for some time, has lately spread into Lebanon. There have been shots taken into Turkey and Israel, and shots back. The Caliphate has unlimited ambitions. I think we're just at the beginning.

Won't game anything related to work or to people I've known and loved who suffered through (WWII, Korea, Vietnam). I don't begrudge the interest shown by other gamers in recent or current conflicts such as Iraq and Afghanistan; heck, some of those gamers are Veterans! But personally…I just can't manage the emotional and mental separation for it to be enjoyable. I work it every day and have been for 33 years. I've lost friends and colleagues. I see their names engraved on our wall. So for me, wargaming ends in 1900 with the Boxer Rebellion, particularly as it was depicted Hollywood-style by Charlton Heston and David Niven.

I'm not usually squirmish about ultramodern fighting, but I know too many Iraqis who still have family and friends back there. Maybe in a year or two I'd do it.

Friends and relations are too likely to be personally involved.

That's odd, as I would think most scenarios would be against Iraqi army or Kurdish forces.

Some folks in the US and elsewhere do actually have friends and relatives in Iraq, Syria, and such, and/or might have friends and relatives personally involved otherwise. Not that odd. It's a small world, you know.

I would. I was just thinking of it today. Modified Battlefront WW2 rules, we use them for 1967 war and Vietnam they seem to work well. Yes you could any number of battles Iraqi army holding ISIS so a village can be evaced, a attack and so forth, lots of things to do.

Only if I can be Shazam.

I have been thinking about it myself to be honest. I figure 15mm or 6mm would be good scale. Maybe AK47 Republic or something fairly fast-play. I have alot of respect for the Kurds and would like to paint up some figures representing the Peshmerga. While I find the atrocities reprehensible, the idea of technicals, captured kit of all kinds and the desert terrain appealing.

Prince Alberts Revenge (and I am curious what that revenge would be, actually ;-)), you said it exactly. AK 47 would probably work, and modern somewhat larger would, I feel, be best in 15mm. Since it is playing and not real (after all we make movies, not war ;-))I have no problem with almost anything. And of course I understand that some people would NOT like to do this because of personal reasons which are to be respected.

One possible scenario would be Delta Force stopping the slaughter of Christians around a mass grave pit. Does anyone make a good line of captured civilians?

I am not interested in gaming anything past WW2 but I have come across an interesting comparison. Correct me if I am wrong, but does anyone else see parallels between IS' tactics and those of the Imperial Japanese Army in 1940-42. Here are the similarities that I see:

- Arsenal mostly consists of light, mobile infantry supported by heavy guns with a general lack of heavy armour.

- The focus on rapid movement and surprise, ISIS gained much of their territory in Iraq by surprising both the Kurdish forces and the Iraqi army by the speed of their advance.

- Both forces relied on highly motivated and fanatic infantry willing to die for the cause to drive fear into their enemies.

- Reliance on night attacks to overcome enemy firepower and achieve surprise.

- Brutal and ruthless treatment of prisoners, enemy combatants, civilians and a general carelessness for the human life.

There are some obvious differences as well; the current conflict in Iraq doesn't have a naval element, the IJA also relied on air superiority which the IS does not have, the IJA was willing to fight to the end to hold onto the territory that it gained, whereas it seems as though IS is more willing to give up towns that it can't hold.

After decades of gaming historical … Plus playing 1 to 1 scale "wargames" in the US ARMY Infantry for over a decade in my youth. I still study military history/topics etc., and enjoy seeing, etc., historical games and models. It's hard to get into Blue Fez territory or touch a nerve with some people, so to speak, when talking about aliens, Space Marines, huge bugs, Spaceships, etc., etc.

One possible scenario would be Delta Force stopping the slaughter of Christians around a mass grave pit. Does anyone make a good line of captured civilians?

Do you mean like some sort of A-Team scenario? Seems like it would be hard to do in any sort of "realistic" game.

Seems like it would be hard to do in any sort of "realistic" game.

Ambush Alley's Force on Force rules would work.

Outskirts of a desert town. Crater or trench for the grave then a front end loader or bulldozer for cover.

The ISIS would obviously want to use the civilians for cover when the shooting starts or decide if they need to shoot the rescue special forces or the civilians.

Yeah, that would make a REAL fun game…
For some, but not for me.

Jeez, this is almost as bad as that clown a few years back who wanted to game a concentration camp. God knows why. He wanted info on buildings, inmates, etc.

I never bothered to reply to the thread yesterday about what you would not game. This is definitely one.

How do you keep score, to make it a "fun" game? Percentage rescued? Bad Guys killed?

game a concentration camp

Wargames Illustrated did an article about a POW escape game at one of the UK shows; I remember that.

I think games like this are a chance to illustrate how the bad guys do bad things or what decisions need to be made without adequate time to deliberate.

I remember during one of the harpoon games I ran in the early 90's I snuck in one bomber sized aircraft showing up on radar while the fleet was under attack. It turned out to be an airliner and yes, the player failed to get visual confirmation and blew it up.

What a great idea, Mr. Elmo!

Y'know, seeing as how this board is non-political and all…

The Ultramodern Board is a bad idea, and this thread is a primary reason why.
Any thread started here is GUARANTEED to veer off into politics.
Nuke it, since you cannot depend on people to stay on the right side of the red line in the sand.
YOUR RULES are "no politics". And this whole Board just invites politics.

Do we need any further proof why this thread AND ENTIRE CONCEPT of the Ultramodern Board should be nuked?
I will let those who can manage the outrage to hit the [!] button, but I am just too sick and tired.
This was entirely predictable. Not only can the TMP "regulars" screw this up all by themselves, there is no lack of drive by newbies willing to throw more gasoline on it.

Of course, I can always turn this Board OFF and insulate myself from its sickness.

Of the people posting in this thread, only two have accounts created this year and only one is "recent".

With all due respect this was a decent thread until the "poo-hoo" crowd led by John chimed in.

And who hasn't gamed a high stakes battle where if you didn't do your job then bad things would happen? Missile Command instantly comes to mind. There are many ultramodern games that revolve around catching really bad people like Osama and I've seen them at conventions.

I think this is a legitimate line of gaming and if it's not your thing then leave it be and let others talk and game. Simple enough.

OK, this is becoming grotesque, and I'm shocked and surprised that our Editor in Chief started the thread.

Completely in agreement with John the OFM on this – we play games with toys for goodness sake, and to think there is 'fun' to be had out of the current tragedy in Northern Iraq is sickening.

As for gaming this, I could see an interesting "Bravo Two Zero" style game where a special forces team, with air support and local militias, try to fight off an ISIS column that is he'll bent on wiping out a village of Christians or some other group they hate.

There are tons of pictures of ISIS fighters on-line and plenty of figures out there. It should be easy enough to do. Now painting the black banners… Good luck with that!

Not only was this 'entirely predictable', but look who started it. What possessed you to kick this off Bill? Don't you watch TV or read newspapers? If you did you'd have a pretty good idea as to what they're armed with. But more importantly you'd have a pretty good idea as to what they're currently doing with those weapons, and it isn't suitable material for fun or games.

Just curious Weasel. Would you play a scenario built around the Cabanatuan Raid? That's US Rangers trying to rescue some Death March survivors? How would the Japanese player play the action? Engage the. Rangers? How about Flames of War and their "The Big Lepkowski" scenario? That's when a platoon of Fallschrimjagers break out some POWs from the FFI to save them from being massacred. It's on page 80 of the Normandy Battles scenario book.

Oh, the scenario VPs are awarded based on how many POW stands are evacuated, so it behooves the FFI player to target the POWS…

Oh … MY … how rapidly, for better or worse, did this thread go South … Of course the Editor started the thread. He can't put himself in the Doghouse anyway !

The Editor..without any doubts ..started the thread aimimg only at wargame purposes..but for what we read and listen what is happening is really to much for our stomach to play with model soldiers.
..and i'm really worried if somebody read this posting (and according to my very decieved feelings).in Washington HQ, Bruxelles SHAPE and why not.also in the Vatican (as they should be more than concerned)..they will be tempted to offer to flying refugees and Christians some copy of wargame rules booklets..

Tgunner – I wouldn't want to play in any scenario that involves the shooting of prisoners or civilians.

If you want to game a situation like a POW rescue, portray them as a simple objective marker with minimal interaction, in my opinion.

I must sadly disagree with Patrice (…)
Surely points should also be awarded for (…)

"Oh B." I entirely agree with the additional optional rules that you suggest.

…

OOOooops I just won 3 days in jail for my previous post :(

Gaming ISIS is no different than many other military situations over the centuries, it is just closer in time to us.

An ISIS scenario would not need to involve atrocities, any more than the typical WWII scenario (Malmedy) or Vietnam (My Lai) scenario would.

However, those people who object to gaming contemporary events should adjourn themselves from this discussion (and, perhaps, this board). Continued complaint would constitute harassment of those with a legitimate interest in the topic.

Anyway, I can see this gamed on several levels.

The simplest would pit ISIS fighters against Iraqi and Kurdish forces. The Iraqi and Kurds would have greater numbers but lower skills and perhaps motivation. I would give both sides WARPAC gear with some US gear mixed in. ISIS troops probably are organized in loose warbands carried by trucks and so on. Perhaps the better groups have HUMVEES. The Kurds look more Western but are probably organized in a similar way. The Iraqi Army is organized on a conventional way and probably has the best gear but the worst motivation and maybe training. ISIS moves fast, strikes hard, and is full of true believers.. plus they have some Mongol "kill ''em all" reputation that scares most of their foes. Interesting to see how this could be modeled.

Next could pit ISIS against western troops, probably US special forces. The west has better gear and training while ISIS has numbers and motivation. Maybe this pans out like early Afghanistan with US troops working with local forces while calling in superior US firepower.

Confused why people offering suggestions for scoring ISIS/ISIL games were dawghoused. Given ISIS/ISIL's own propaganda, it seems scoring the murder of civilian targets is a core element of any game.

Dawghousing folks who merely put numbers to it as requested by the Editor seems baffling. It's not my cup o' tea, but you got what you asked for there.

Legion 4 said:

After decades of gaming historical … Plus playing 1 to 1 scale "wargames" in the US ARMY Infantry for over a decade in my youth. I still study military history/topics etc., and enjoy seeing, etc., historical games and models. It's hard to get into Blue Fez territory or touch a nerve with some people, so to speak, when talking about aliens, Space Marines, huge bugs, Spaceships, etc., etc.

I game sci-fi for similar reasons, because tactical aspects can still be explored, without directly relating to a historical or current (or even potential future "real") conflict. Even, dare I say it, political aspects can be "gamed" which may reflect past or present (or possible future) situations, again without relating directly to a particular entity, incident, event, or era.

Not that I think others shouldn't game what interests them. I speak only for my own leisure time. I will be including elements of insurgency and possible collateral damage in my campaign, they just won't be these elements or any recognizable "real" entities.

Tgunner, how much of that 'motivation' would survive when confronted by professional soldiers backed with serious hardware? Some of the core units would fight to the last civilian, but others might just melt away, especially if their fanatical leadership had just had a kinetic encounter and they were new recruits.

Once ISIS were on the ropes, some of those they'd brutalised would seek payback, and to reassert their authority, which might be an event triggered by the battlefield situation. This resistance does not have to be violent, sabotaging vehicles or calling on 'banned' mobiles, giving intel, would be just as disruptive as taking up an AK.

Glad to see someone else feels the same as I do grommet … As I said on another thread … It appears the US will be sending "more" advisors somewhere around 130 Troops … I think these will assist with evac'ing the refugees on Sinjar. I would not be surprised to see V-22s, CH-53s, etc. to expidite this. Also it appears that CAS will increase too, to suppress/destroy IS assets that could interfer with this mission and the force protection ops. I was a Bn Air Ops Officer in the 101, in my youth. I've run many LZs/PZs that moved 600-800 troops by UH-1s, CH-47s, UH-60s and even the odd USAF CH-53. Most lifts were only 3-5 birds. So it took sometime. Even the biggest LZ/PZ I ran had a couple of lifts of 12-13 UH-60s. My point … it will take a very, very, long time to try to evac the thousands that are up there. Plus who ever is running the LZs/PZs [Which will most likely be US troops, [SF, USMC, etc.] will have to coordinate Re-supply drops, which I have done also. The Kurds with US support will have to provide defense of the area [and don't doubt there won't be US "Advisors" right there along with them !] And of course US and some Euro assets will provide SEADS to keep air routes clear of IS AAA … Of course from my experience and knowledge the best way to do this entire ops is to attrite as many IS assets as possible. Plus the Kurds with US advisors with have to help with crowd control. What we called "PZ Contol". That was my call sign for the incoming flights on occassion. The Kurd/US troops, will be setting up aircraft loads/Chalks, etc. … We all remember what happened often in Vietnam, When US choppers were trying to evac ARVN troops for an LZ/PZ and the "brave" ARVN ran and jumped on the skids, etc. … To get out as fast as possible. Many fell off and died hitting th ground, etc. … SO if you really want to try to wargame this type op, it could be very "challeging" … But based from what I know … NOT fun. And again GHQ pretty much has most of what you'll need including local civilains, etc. …