"10mm vs 6mm" Topic

I have had Adler figures painted by Old Guard and they have charged me the standard 6mm price of $0.60 USD per figures. Their painting is excellent.

Jurgen

Interesting Jurgen. Do you mind me asking you was it long ago?

If they're better that other painters then I won't begrudge that bit extra because I really would prefer Alders

One thing I find interesting, whenever we have a conversation about the smaller scale figures, someone always brings up doing the games in 28mm. Why is this? I can understand this 35 years ago when some of us became converts to 15mm, but today? After the OP has made the decision to go smaller? Look we acknowledge the beauty of the 28s, but as a matter of practicality some of us want the smaller figures and always have.

War Panda,

My last order from them was 2 years ago, so they might have changed their policy since then.

Jurgen

Straight Adler and Baccus size comparison here:

link

Jurgen thank you. I just wanted to be sure that someone wasn't taking advantage of my considerable ignorance ;)

Hog@

That comparison gives me a much better idea of the actual differences. It isn't the height but the bulk of the mini, and IMO the Baccus is every bit as detailed but I still think the extra mass or bulkiness of the Alder might allow more surface to be painted and therefore slightly more distinguishable from a distance on the table.

I play WW2 in 15mm, 20mm and 28mm and my favourite scale is 20mm as I prefer the less bulky proportions of 20mm. But for the purposes of more distinguishable massed ranks of troops from a distance on the table I am favouring Alder. But I have to say from those pics the Baccus look excellent as well …

Thanks for the link H Hog :)

BTW these sweeping statements I'm making with regards to 6mm are without any real personal empirical evidence. ..( apart from my own personal opinions on my collection of various WW2 scales.)

If I'm inadvertently offending someones mini collection be comforted in the knowledge that to the best of my knowledge miniatures lack emotions and are therefore incapable of taking offence ;) and by the fact that I don't know what the Hell I'm talking about :)

Hello War Panda!

Actually you would think so, but not in my experience. Adler infantry can be mounted as they come, or cut and put closer together. We cut and mount our Adlers close together, perhaps leaving them as they are might be better. Baccus infantry come mounted closer together and in uniform poses. So from a distance the colours of the Baccus figures actually seem to jump out at you a little more.

Obviously a very subjective comment, but everyone in my group when asked which units seem to stand out more from a distance always picked Baccus.

Best regards,

Glenn

Glenn that's very interesting and would seem to completely demolish my theory.
If Alder are going to be more expensive to be commission painted (in my case at least) and they are almost exactly the same height (I think we've already established that) the real advantage was their ability to be a little more dominant on the table ;their "stand out" factor. Back to the drawing board for me…?

War Panda,

Old Guard charge $0.70 USD for Adler now.

Jurgen

War Panda,

You need to be aware that Glenn is the local Baccus fan boy and cheerleader. He has a bit of a reputation for a lack of objectivity when it comes to Baccus.

I have Adler Napoleonics and Baccus AWI; for me, the Adler figures stand out more on the table.

Jurgen

Hello War Panda!

Well that depends, Adler cavalry are bigger then Baccus, so they do have a larger presence. They are certainly a little more dominant. But at a distance the different poses lose the colour blend that Baccus has, again because Baccus cavalry are all in one pose.

Have you looked at Fernando Enterprises in Sri Lanka? He has been in business for a number of years. I think his basic rate for 6mm infantry is 35 cents US. He also generally offers a discount for big orders. I don't think he charges extra for Adlers but if he does then that might just be another reason to use Baccus. It's been a long time since I compared prices but when I did I noticed Baccus was a little cheaper and extremely easy to order.

You could also contact Baccus as I think he has a couple of regular painting services that he could recommend.

Best regards,

Glenn

One up for Flecktarns appreciation of the situation

Jurgen .70?? hmmm they did quote me .90 a couple of days ago but perhaps it was a mistake ;) I'll be in touch with them as they have an excellent rep! Thanks for that

Glenn thanks for the recommendations I check them out too

And I'm not trying to cause any kind of conflict here I understand that it is a very subjective matter. Some of my pals way prefer my 28mm while others 20mm…it's interesting to hear different views on it. I dont get to see these things in person and I find photos can be deceiving

Hello Jurgen!

My preference for Baccus is not a secret. You make it sound like I'm some sort of sorcerer who's about to entrap War Panda. Your comments were not very flattering, and were unwarranted.

You obviously think Adlers stand out more. Does that make you the local Adler fan boy and cheerleader with a reputation for no objectivity?

Why do you think you have to label someone simply because they have a different opinion? What's wrong with simply dealing with the subject?

Best regards,

Glenn

Hello all,
Lets not let this get in any way bad tempered please.
There are a myriad reasons why each prefers a particular style of figure, poses, animation, the style of design suiting the way someone paints, can all be summed as just that make of figure 'sits' right for that person. There is no 'right' or 'wrong' choice, one range isnt 'better' than another, they just click with different people for different reasons. Back in the old days I just could not get on with Minifigs 25mm much prefered Peter Gilder/Hincliffe stuff. Id admired the Minifigs greatly just the engraved style of detail didn't suit my way of painting and I prefered the extra zip in the Hincliffe animation.
I never said the Minifigs were bad figures merely that I couldnt paint em well enough.
I know there are agendas out there but please dont let them intrude, afterall we are all the same sort of of loonies that play with toy soldiers lol And as I make the things that probably makes me slightly more loony than most…………
L

Hello Leon!

Well said, and just for the record I think your figures are world class and anybody that has them or wants to buy them, paint them, collect them etc. should indeed be very proud to have them. I've said this many times before, but it seems to have gone unnoticed by some.

Best regards,

Glenn

I'm wedded to 15mm for Napoleonics and ACW but I have some of the Pendraken AWI figures. I'd suggest that you need to think about a few different things and where you stand on them before making a choice.

1) Are you someone who wants to play something like General de Brigade where the figure scale is 1:20, or something like Volley & Bayonet where the figure scale is much lower?

As mentioned above – the Peninsula might be more suited to 10mm, while the Central European theatre battles are better dealt with in 6mm.

2) Are you looking at 10mm / 6mm because you want to recreate "big" battles – or because you want to have more figures per unit?

My personal feeling is that 36 6mm infantry representing a battalion just isn't enough – and that you need to use double that to get the impression of "mass" needed – but that counters out the speed of painting, size of footprint and other arguments for 6mm troops.

3) Related to the above – what table size do you have? I think part of the reason the battles in the links above look so good, is that the troops aren't "wall to wall" and have room to manoeuvre on the table.

Anyway, all things I think you'll need to consider before you go down the rabbithole of Napoleonics.

Malc

Glenn,

The vast majority of your posts on the Napoleonic boards have involved telling everyone how wonderful Baccus are. My comments may not have been flattering, but they were completely warranted.

Given that I have made one positive comment about Adler figures compared with your repeated praises of Baccus, I hardly think that accusing me of being a subjective fan boy is warranted.

It is not your opinion that was the issue; it is the fact that you come across as someone who wants to be the PR man for Baccus. You may not have noticed, but I did deal with the issue as well as issuing a warning about your known partiality.

Jurgen

Sorry Jurgen, but I couldn't disagree more. I don't think insulting someone simply because they have a different opinion or association is ever justified.

I never accused you of being a subjective fan boy. I was simply trying to understand your criteria.

I clearly noticed your statement on the actual issue. That was the subject of my second paragraph. It's your first paragraph that does not belong in your message.

It seems that my close association with Baccus makes you feel insecure. I have no idea why.

I must admit that I never ever thought that my views were so dangerous that people had to be warned about them. It seems that I've certainly underestimated my enormous power of persuasion.

Best regards,

Glenn

Hello Leon!

I forgot to mention that I was a 25mm minifigs guy. Still have about 1,000 of them. Didn't care for Hincliffe at all. Then a fellow gave me some. Once I painted them I was hooked. Upon reflection I do see that DNA in your figures. Well done.

Best regards,

Glenn

If you don't mind me saying, why the hell does any subject on this forum end up in a bloody argument?

Doesn't anybody have the self discipline and manners to stick to original question?

I'm sorry but I have had enough of reading 25% well intentioned content from helpful people, and 75% bickering!!

Littlearmies,

Your point 3 is the one that works for me; my 6mm horse and musket armies are at approximately 1:20 and, while I agree that a 36 figure battalion still does not look quite right and 60 looks fantastic, I like the fact that a battle can be centred in its terrain, rather than covering it entirely. Open flanks and key terrain features that are just outside the "normal" deployment footprint of the army make for an interesting game.

Having just read Alexander Mikaberidze's "The Battle of Borodino" one of the things that struck me was the problem that Kutusov had, both before and after Borodino, in finding a battlefield which was the right size for his army with protection for the flanks, which is not a problem that usually occurs in wargames. With 6mm games, this can become important.

By the way, does anyone have any pictures that they would care to show of Baccus figures painted by Reinforcements by Post? I want to start a SYW army and am not hugely impressed by the pictures on the Reinforcements by Post website.

Jurgen

Hi war panda if you are still undecided send me your address on the perfect six forum ,pm me ,I will send you a stand of each baccus and adler it's better if you could see them in the flesh, I was originally torn between 10mm and 6mm as you can tell I went 6mm and never looked back.

Richard

Flecktarn,
When I started painting the Pendraken AWI figures I went for a 1:5 ratio on the basis the battles were quite small (and regiments frequently smaller). So the battalions look a bit more like proper battalions.

The main positive I see about 6mm is that you can deploy battalions with the proper distance between them so that a brigade or regiment looks "right" on the field. With 15 and 28mm figures all to often there is no room for a battalion to redeploy into line or whatever.

Malc

@Richard that's extraordinarily kind of you :) and very much appreciated.

The Perfect Six site is an amazing advertisement not just for 6mm but Napoleonic's in general.

Your minis in particular are hugely inspiring and one of the main reasons I originally even considered what I regarded at the time as too small a scale.

I can see the advantages of the scale and I can see that they are detailed enough to have the potential to "look beautiful"

Thanks Richard

Not a problem it is a genuine offer , glad you like forum it is shaping up nicely, you should try painting some yourself you might have a talent for 6mm but even a basic paint job looks stunning on the table ! You could enter the waterloo painting compitition I'm running you might surprise yourself.

Richard

I'm looking forward to trying out 6mm and once I get started I intend to paint most/all myself

Might even try out the competition; but be warned I'm pretty competitive ;)

Lol I like competitive just wish I could enter myself!
I will get someone else to run the next one then I can enter, then you will see competitive lol .

welcome to 6mm napoleonics by the way, you won't be dissapointed!

Richard

6mm figures are 1/285 scale ( the Ameriacn version of 1/300th) so taking a man at 6 feet high 1.8m in metric and divide by 285 you get 6.42 mm from the base of the feet to eye level

Arrrrgh

A 6ft man is 6ft to his CROWN. If he is 6ft to his eyes then he is 6ft 4in (1m90)

which since the mid 80's has been the 'standard' method of measuring figures.

Debatable – it may have started then, whether it was standard is another thing.

Additionally men were not standard height of 6ft through the ages – a 10-15% difference over the last 400 years.

Admittedly the 10cm eyes-crown in 6mm is negligible (1/3rd of a mil), but at larger scales I don't believe sculpters don't have the ability to say x to the crown means y to the eyes. Given the detail they do, they must be able to correctly scale. They have to take everything else off this – especially weapon length.

Hmmm, I cannot understand this constant argument over defifnition of scale. The Adler minis have in my view exactly the right size for my purpose – seems besides the point to continue this argument about the correct scale – it is quite arbitrary and the definitions are not law based. If you like the size use the figs. It is the same with AB: are they 15 or 18 mm – I do not care, they are the "right" size for all the guys in our club who paint them.

I think comparison pics for compatibility is much more helpfull than discussions about the "true" scales. Compatibility between scales has more to do with girth and style than height per se.

It is in my view the same with terrain. Our terrain is always to small for the figs – try see how tall a tree is in real life comapared to the representation on a wargame table. It is more imprtant to get a representation that pleases ones eye and delivers "suspension of disbelief", than any argument about scale religion.

IMHO and not to offend :-)

Hmmm, I cannot understand this constant argument over defifnition of scale. The Adler minis have in my view exactly the right size for my purpose – seems besides the point to continue this argument about the correct scale – it is quite arbitrary and the definitions are not law based. If you like the size use the figs. It is the same with AB: are they 15 or 18 mm – I do not care, they are the "right" size for all the guys in our club who paint them.

I think comparison pics for compatibility is much more helpfull than discussions about the "true" scales. Compatibility between scales has more to do with girth and style than height per se.

This ties back to a problem that has bedevilled the hobby since it's inception; compatibility between manufacturers figures. Based on photo on the previous page it is obvious that Adler figures are bigger and you certainly could not mix them with R&H or Irregular in the same unit. Similar thing happens is 10mm where GHQ and Red Line (Bend Sinister) are smaller than say MM. Or in 28mm where some figures are closer to 32mm. I see this more as an attempt by manufacturers to keep you buying just there figures to make an force.

Or perhaps it is not a conspiracy but just different aesthetics – it make little sense for a new company not to go for compatibility with existing ranges, so perhaps it has to do with an idea about making something that one finds to be a better product?

Well designers are always looking for more scope to detail, hence constant 'upscaling' and its easier to make a figure better proportioned if you can make it taller. Hence the shift to 18mm and 28 ( 32mm).
When I first did my range the only other 6mm ( in fact 5mm ish there was no such scale as 6mm back then) ranges around were the H&R which were lovely little fellas I just couldn't paint them well enough to get the sort of Napoleonics I wanted. So I designed something a little different, not better just different. H&R were designed as WW2 ranges to fit in with the then small vehicles and the horse and musket ranges went on to be designed in the same manner. By the time I started it was 1/285 rather than 300th scale so there was a bit more scope. 5mm to 6mm deosnt sound a lot but makes a heck of a lot of difference its the equivalent of going from 25 to 28mm from a designers point of view.
And yes makers are trying to get you to stick to their ranges very often its a natural tendency to monopoly.
Dont forget we are all doing the 'Games workshop hobby' lol
L

:-)

All Hail the Blessed GW Hobby.

Actually it was them that got me back on 10mm for massed armies – War Master.

War panda yes

it takes me 90min to paint, quite good looking 6mm unit of 36 figs

only mass effect wanted

in 10mm due to the high detail i m forced to paint carefully, one by on , shading…

i think i ll have posted some pictures

Shading in 10mm? You're keen! The only shading I bother with in this scale is on a horse's flanks where the surface area warrants it. Other than that, it's black with highlights; simple, quick and looks good from a distance.

I'm a shading nutter I'm afraid , 3 layers of shading on 6mm 4-5 on 10mm and don't ask about the bigger scales ! But they look good from 2ft away and 2 inches so I'm happy .

Richard