"10mm vs 6mm" Topic

I'm looking to get into Napoleonics and I'm a little divided between 6mm and 10mm. I love detail in my models so I feel 10mm would serve ms better but I've been surprised by the quality of Alder and other 6mm makes. I do hope to eventually field large armies and I've received good advice on the advantages of the smaller scale. I do enjoy painting but I've never painted small than 15mm and I'm worried about how difficult it will be to paint 6mm if I'm looking for a decent job

I don't do Napoleonics, but I do do 6mm for everything but skirmish. There are some great tutorials on painting 6mm minis out there (on the Baccus site, for example). There have been some AMAZING pics of Napoleonics posted here over the last year or so, too. Poke around a bit and see what you find. To my mind, you cannot beat the bang for the buck (in terms of money or time) of 6mm, and nothing else comes as close to looking like an army.

Doug

I've got loads of 15mm and 6mm Napoleonics, but if I was starting from scratch, 10mm would be my choice. The quality of some of the sculpts is brilliant, nearly as good as some of the 15mm ranges. I haven't really found a 6mm range that is as good, although some of the newer Baccus ones are quite good. I think 10mm gives everything that 6mm gives (relatively cheap, able to represent units with large number of figures on a small footprint etc) with much more detail in the figures.

I started down the 6mm Napoleonic route but found that I still wanted to paint the miniatures to same standard that I currently paint my 15mm figures. This however doomed the project since it took way to long to get them done to my satisfaction (even though from a foot away most of the detail was lost).

Luckily I sold everything I had purchased to a good friend of mine and he has now built enough to do just about any Napoleonic era battle. I love playing with them becasue you get the largest possible table space and he uses 64 figure battalions that look great on the table.

My advice would be order a pack of the 6mm figs and give painting them a try. If it's not for you then go back to the 10mm stuff but if you can do the 6mm stuff it is worth it.

To see what can be done with 6mm figures, use the search function for Kev1964 under "authors", and prepare to be amazed!

Mollinary

for 10mm you might want to look at this link:

link

Dito with SteamingDave47 said except i have since sold my 6mm to buy more 15s.

MG

There is a huge quality difference in the paint job that can be done between the different 6 mm brands. You should try some Adlers, the detail is in my eyes comparable to 10 mm like pendragon.
When you consider scale think about how many figs you think looks like a battalion. Some think 6 x 15 mm is great, some think you need 100 6 mm to look the part – the important part is the units footprint on the table. If you need huge numbers of smaller figs, then you are not necessarily gooing to be able to play large games. We have 1:20 scale and play 6 mm adler, so our battles look like this:

drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B8qTmN3d9mEtWkJkMlRXS3c0aDQ&usp=sharing

Sparta,
Your link to the PICs needs a ID and password

Hmmm, hope it works now!

Both scales offer similar advantages over larger scale figures.

When in your position, I went for 10mm because I felt in that the 10mm figures had slightly more character than the 6mm and having got samples of both scales I found I preferred painting 10mm.

It is surprising what you can do on a smaller sized table. This is paid on 6x5 or 8x5 table:

link

link

link

link

link

Panda,

I've been right where you are right now.

The answer depends on what your looking for. 10mm and 6mm will not save you money, if that's the concern. There's decades of supply of 15mm and 28mm out there and you can find older, larger scale figures on Ebay just a cheaply as you can find 10mm or 6mm new. Used 10mm are as rare as purple squirrels (I've been looking for three years).

A 60mm x 30mm footprint (Polemos) for a single stand 6mm battalion (24 infantry) allows one player to comfortably play one corps on a 6 x 4 table. At 10mm, two 2" x 3/4" or 1" bases hold 40 infantry figures for a similar foot print, but you have to double the scale or halve the size of the battle for the same sized table. At 15mm, you can mount 16 on the same footprint. Cost for 6mm is about $3.60 USD with discount. 10mm (Old Glory at 40% discount) is about $4. USD Sixteen 15s (at Ebay prices)are about $3.20 USD.

It's harder to find opponents with epic scale figures. We've all been painting and collecting 15s (mostly) for decades and few want to start over.

Smaller scale also won't save you time painting, if you intend to paint to a high standard. It's a myth that small scale are faster to paint well, it's just a different style of painting.

So, one stand or two or more per battalion. One stand has its advantages. Games are just less fidgety. Games set up faster. Movement is quicker. Units just look more impressive without requiring a bigger table or skewing the scale. You can ramp up a 60mm x 30mm base to hold up to 48 6mm figures without changing your footprint or scale because in most 6mm rules a base is a base no matter how many figures it contains.

I'm trying out both scales. 6mm infantry on one 60mm x 30mm base and 40 10mm on two 2" x 3/4 inch bases. Reviews are mixed. Half the group like single stand battalions with a marker for formation and the other half want two stands and are willing halve the size of the game.

My opinion is that if you want epic games (over 100 battalions each, 50k men) 6mm on one stand is the way to go. If you want to play a couple of corps and have multiple stands per battalion, then 10mm would get the nod.

i did choose 6mm for mass effect and speed of painting:

it took me almost the same time to paint a 10mm that one of 15mm due to the excellent detail and quality

Thanks guys that's great help. I'm actually right outside Calgary and I know the Sentry Box has lots of minis and Nap games so I might run in and check them out.

I have never seen 6mm in the flesh so by the sounds of things that's a must. Excellent info too Joe. Getting an idea of measurements is great. I'm in this dilemma that feels like whatever I choose now I'm inevitably regret later. No perfect solution I guess. I'm beginning to realize that my original presumptions are incorrect. I really presumed 6mm would be way quicker to paint but as I do intend to paint them to a decent level as I can then I might have to look at 10mm option again.

I was also hoping to get some commissioned painted. Get a start on things and it doesn't seem sad aught info and I can get playing pretty quickly…

Any recommendations on commission painters that are a really good standard?

Thanks again guys very very helpful

Danikine74 so you find 6mm much faster to paint than 10mm?

I agree there are a number of very talented guys painting 6mm figures posting on TMP, but is spending that much time and effort on a 6mm figure, fun for me? No, nor do I think doing so makes much sense with figures that are difficult to distinguish from any realistic playing distance.

I agree that 10s have more personality, but at that point, it's a just a judgement call, I think.

For enjoyable painting, I'm staying with 28s, for putting together massed units, 6mm.

I started with 6mm and switched over to 10mm when I started to get OLD and could no longer tell French from English without a magnifying glass. Now I use reading glasses to paint. I have converted all my armies to 10mm.

Ancients
Dark Age
Napoleonic
Civil War

Whichever you choose, the look of the smaller scales is great. Have fun!

Another useful link is
perfectsixps.proboards.com
L

Beautiful playing tables, 138Squadron.

Something else you might want to consider is your theater of war.

If you want division scale infantry battles, which are more appropriate to the Peninsular War and the French Revolutionary period, 10mm may be the way to go. 6mm lends itself better to Central Europe in the Napoleonic Period. You need a massive army and tabletop to do most Central Europe battles at anything less than a brigade level at 10mm.

Oddly enough, Empire had the best unit footprint for large scale battles. Eight figure battalions at 15mm in column were about a 20mm x 50mm footprint. That's a tiny footprint, but if you want to play with the Guard Corps and Reserve Cavalry Corps on the table top…

For the record, I prefer the French Revolutionary period.

I've tried 10s a number of times and I generally tried to paint them like I paint 15s and, if you do that, they take just as long to paint as 15s, so keep that in mind. It is really hard (at least for me) to break away from one style of painting and go to a 6mm or 10mm style/technique.

I just bought a pack of Highlanders in 10mm and beautiful incredible detail but just to confirm what 79thPA said I know these are definitely going to take me as long as 15mm.

The store had no 6mm at all so no comparisons for me to make yet.

BTW those we're the very tables that inspired me to do my own WW2 tables…fantastic 138Squadron.

BTW any thoughts on "Napoleonic Battles third edition" by LBG…I saw it in the store and gave into temptation….this was my second choice after researching several sets…but wanted to start reading something

I do everything from New Kingdom Egyptians to Gordon of Khartoum in 10mm, with the exception of horse and musket, where the spectacle of fifty or more units on the field seems really rewarding to me. I therefore do them in 6mm. You can't paint all the lace on the hats (I'm into SYW more than Napoleonics), but with that many units you really have no reason to.

I would think that painting 10mm would be just about the same as doing 15mm.

For the small side, Adler, hands down the best, IMHO.

#1) A HUGE range, rivaling most 28mm.

#2) Large horses (I commented on this not too long ago, some think they do not look right, but this is only b/c some wargamers have become comfortable with unrealistic small horses…the cavalry is what I like best about this range.)

#3) Lots and lots of variety, especially among command. The Russians, for example, have mounted commanders, a separate pack for "general" generals, and personality figures with ADC's (and yes, you would be able to recognize Kutozov.)

#4) Arillery: Some say they are Adler's best sculpts, I would agree, but the nice size cavalry sold me.

#5) Depending on how fiddly you are with things, it is not too difficult to cut and drill out holes in hands for poles when making your own flags, standards, or pennons.

#6) Also, a great value. Do the math, and you will be surprised. Take advantage of the division packs.

What I have done over the last year is gone even smaller. Pico Armor 3mm. Believe it or not these things are fast to paint, you just need to practice a method that works for you, and use very bright colors (stack the ranks closely, do a good job on the front, and just paint the backs so it looks like something is painted.)

These photos in 3mm is what converted me to 3mm.

link Lancers (15 pcs)&m=0

Yes, they are 3mm, just as splendid in the aluminum/zinc/? alloy as they look…now even 6mm look large to me!

ilodic.

Panda,

Napoleon's Battles IMHO is a better battalion game than a brigade game. No big deal substituting battalions for brigades. Game mechanics are pretty simple and easy to pick up. As long as players stay away from cheesy gamesmanship (e.g. the artillery crew that advances without their guns to pin units) it's fine. That said, I prefer Carnage & Glory. It's the rule set of choice at the big East Coast conventions for napoleonics.

Joe, Ill have to check out C&G as well…looks like a busy few months ahead. ;) Thanks for all your help and info

I've been a huge champion of 10mm figures since their early days, but much to my chagrin the availability of complete lines has continued to hamper 10mm Napoleonics for over a decade. Therefore, when considering 10mm vs 6mm, you have to take a long look at what campaigns you want to do, and what the figure availability is. GHQ is dead in the water and far too expensive, Magister Militum is fairly complete but the quality is poor IMHO, and while Pendraken, as always, is putting out a lot of great figures, they don't have a great track record of staying the course with their various Napoleonics lines. Other minor players like Redline also seem to have stopped expansion. Napoleonics is simply a bear to complete and compete in!

I finally decided to go with Adler (my first 6mm), for several reasons:

1. The range is extremely large, reducing me to complaining about the availability of 1796 Austrian infantry in casquets … so you can pretty much count everything else in. And I know he has greens even for those. ;)

2. The quality of the sculpts are great, definitely rivaling the best 10mm. This is due in large part to the fact that they are "big" 6mm figures, almost as large as the "small" 10mm figures. Witness how easy it has been for Adler to switch over to 10mm Ancients recently.

3. Due to their size, they retain the ability to be based on a 5mm per figure frontage, which older 10mm figures used to have, but scale creep has gotten the better of them, and now you can't fit most on a 5mm frontage.

4. This hasn't been a concern for me, but Baccus is a big player in 6mm and also has a very complete line, so you have another option.

5. There are some great building and terrain options out there, especially Total Battle.

I would recommend getting some samples – Pendraken are really good about sending them out, and you can still order Adler by the individual strip.

Good luck! My best advice would be to consider 1) what do you want your individual units to look like, and 2) are the figures available to play the periods or theatres you want?

Cheers,

Christopher

Go with 10mm, I tried painting 6mm but they were just too small, and that was back when I could still see. I painted about 1,000 10mm in a month I used the (SOS) method, a dot for the face a dash for the gun and straps another dot of paint for the canteen etc. Putting them all on a Popsicle stick, I would do 20 in an hour.
Also there are many more choices for 10mm now than there were when I did it 10 years ago.
Good luck

Hi

I would consider both ules and figure scales together.

@Grossman
Do you have any pics of your 10mm/paint style?

thanks
MG

I bought some Adler 10mm Gauls a while ago. Terrible flimsy weapons, almost every one of which I had to replace. The variety's good, but there are so many Celts from different companies that I really regretted not just getting some more Newlines or Pendrakens and settling for twelve rather than fourteen different poses per warband.

I've noticed a big difference in the size of Alders 6mm as mentioned by CAT . They almost look 8-9mm with larger proportions. While I'm not normally a big fan of exaggerated proportions I think it might be an advantage in this scale. I'm beginning to be swayed towards Adler 6mm since it's almost a combination/compromise between both. As advised here I'm probably going to order a small selection to see how I get on with painting them.
I am interested in a commission painter too as I always feel overwhelmed by the thought of painting everything from scratch.

Again I'd like to thank everyone who posted their advice. I taken all on board including MichaelCollins paper models that I may well invest in to allow some instant gaming

Cheers

John

I have 15mm Napoleonics with some 6mm Great Northern War. If starting out in Napoleonics now I would be very tempted by 10mm or 6mm – but I do love my 15mm figures! Let me put a few points into the mix:

1. 6mm figures really are quite tiny, and when playing with them you have to look quite hard to identify units further than infantry or cavalry. Even if you do a nice paint job so that all the unit distinctions are there (and that is possible).
2. But small terrain looks great if you take a little trouble over it. Villages can be represented by groups of buildings with the odd tree. This looks infinitely better than individual buildings that look horribly out of context. And you can go for really, really nice (google Bruce Weigle – using 6mm figures with home made 4mm terrain). I have taken to using 6mm terrain with my 15mm figures!
3. 10mm looks like an elegant compromise, and I've seen some fantastic pictures of them in use. They would look OK with 6mm terrain (much better than 15mm). It worries that the figure ranges are not nearly as comprehensive as 15mm – and figure conversions would be quite hard beyond paint jobs. I investigated 10mm for 1815 Prussians (an army with a lot of variety in uniforms) and couldn't find what I needed (though I was probably being too fussy).
4. I found my 6mm GNW still took quite a while to paint, as I still wanted to be able to tell the different units apart on close inspection. And you have lots of figures to paint! I expect if you are brutal about the detail you paint it's a lot quicker – and you won't notice in the ordinary run of play.
5. One aesthetic point with the top 6mm figures (Adler or later Bacchus) is that they can be too detailed, so that the overall proportions look wrong – the hats too big, etc. You don't notice this so much on the table (typically you are looking down) – but it will irritate some. Cruder and smaller figures by Heroics (and no doubt others) don't suffer this. Weigle uses Heroics incidentally for his 1870 etc games.

A matter of taste – but I'm sure you'll learn to love whatever choice you make. It's good to have a glass full attitude on these things!

Matthew

Third the idea of painting both 6mm and 10mm. Rather than samples I would paint up a whole unit and then you can get the full visual

I thought I would go 6mm, but can't imagine painting hundreds of them – working on some 10mm at the moment, which I am enjoying. Then I will do a 15mm unit.

If you are not doing the painting yourself then I don't know. If you could travel to a club and see a full game in person that may give you some more ideas

John

Hi War Panda

My solution to your challenging conundrum has been to collect armies in both 10mm and 6mm!

Adler are wonderful for 6mm, and Baccus (also very good, but not IMHO, as good as Adler) will mix with them, increasing your options. Heroics & Ros are a bit small, but I nonetheless have some, mainly for units (e.g. Imp Guard band) the other brands don't cover.

In 10mm I have mostly Magister Militum & Pendraken, plus some Old Glory. But at present I'm concentrating on getting the 6mm stuff ready. This is partly because Adler figs are just so damn nice… they invite you to paint them!

For my money, so to speak – or perhaps I should say for your money – you need to prioritise what's important to you yourself. For me a large part of the charm of the Napoleonic era is the martial splendour. To do this justice go with the figures you like the most, whatever scale you opt for, and invest an appropriate amount of time and effort (or money, if you're having others do the job) into painting and basing them.

Despite now having both 6mm & 10mm myself (French & Russian forces for 1812) I've found that I can't resist the allure of some 15mm and 28mm: Tony Barton and the Perry Twins represent the acme of what can be done figure-wise for this period.

… let yourself be seduced by the Dark Side ;-)

Heroics and Ros, Go true 5mm.

link

I wish I'd gone 10mm instead of 6mm for Napoleonics.

First – if you intend to wargame massed battles rather than Sharpe style skirmish 6mm can't take the detail of paintwork for table viewing. I'm NOT saying the sculptors can't do it, it is just a fact of human visual acuity. By that I mean, for instance, the French Allied troop unit I have. On close inspection whoever painted them spent time getting them right. However from a meter away they look like a Jackson Pollock interpretation of a Monet- just lots of colour dots.

I painted some British in a simpler style – Just the major colours- red body, grey legs, white belts, facings, face, Shako. Its effective, but lacks detail, which you want. However from 3 ft away you can't tell this.

I like 10mm – I find it cheaper (new- Joe Rocket is right about finding 10mm on eBay) than 15mm. I also find them a forgiving paint – the detail is there, but you don't have to get it all on if you can't paint (I hate painting). Straps are big enough to pick out, but smallenough to do with one pass of the brush. Cock ups are too easy to see on 15s (I painted 15s once over 20 years ago – hated it, seemed like trying to paint a small 25mm. Found 10s shortly after, and found them so much easier to paint. I basically find the 15s to be small 25s, not 10s to be small 15s

You could try this. On a piece of paper mark 15mm, 10 and 6mm heights. Find a picture of a uniform you intend to paint. Holding the paper at arms length move until the pic is matches a set of marks. That is what the figure will look like across the table at that scale.

Also to consider is unit foot prints. For info I find 10mm takes 20mm frontage for 3 figures, 30mm for a frontage of 4 (slight margin on this one).

Also remember the smaller you go the more a slight difference in size makes. I have some "6mm" (Poss Baccus) Lovely figures, Actually 8mm. Doesn't match with anything else.

I also like the feel and weight of a 10mm unit in my hand – it was GW Warmaster that I discovered this with – a 40mm x 20mm 12 man base just feels right in the hand.

For info (if you look for non military terrain)
6mm roughly Z gauge
10mm Roughly N gauge

I have been very happy with Old Guard painters service, who have done a ton of Adlers for me

flic.kr/p/oGfchZ

"Despite now having both 6mm & 10mm myself (French & Russian forces for 1812) I've found that I can't resist the allure of some 15mm and 28mm: Tony Barton and the Perry Twins represent the acme of what can be done figure-wise for this period."

I share the same feelings.

matthew brings up a good point w/terrain…it's a lot easier to do actual villages in 6mm…

Sebastian@ Deciding just to do Naps I feel like I've already crossed over to the Dark Side :)

Last Huzzar@ I'm decided that I'm not doing regular 6mm but I believe Alders are actually closer to 10mm

Sparta they look great. Did they base them too? I notice they're based the way I was hoping to for Napoleons Battles

Warpanda,
Please if you going to measure things please do it accurately, figures should be measured from bottom of foot to eye level, that pic deos non of the ranges justice as the angle is all wrong. I make both 6mm and 10mm and can assure the 6mm ranges are not 'near 10mm' lol
L

6mm figures are 1/285 scale ( the Ameriacn version of 1/300th) so taking a man at 6 feet high 1.8m in metric and divide by 285 you get 6.42 mm from the base of the feet to eye level which since the mid 80's has been the 'standard' method of measuring figures.

Apologies Leon, my last comment

I believe Alders are actually closer to 10mm

was extremely badly worded especially in the context of the photo that accompanied it.

It's not my photo but I thought it gave an excellent view of how much greater potential "presence" Alder might give in comparison to other 6mm not that it was taller. That's what I meant by "closer to 10mm"

The statement was meant to reflect my dilemma of wanting the smaller footprint of 6mm but also desiring the greater "stand out" impression thats often only available with 10mm.

This reflected the views of several sites I visited.

Again despite how it sounded and looked (yes I was kind of surprised when I re-read it) I did not mean the actual physical size is closer to 10mm…

Also my earlier comment:

"almost LOOK closer to 8mm-9mm"

was not meant to reflect that Alders are physical larger than other 6mm although I'm under the impression they are proportionately larger?

I want to emphasize at this point that I don't actually own any of these so even these comments are based on others opinions and the above photo that I posted earlier.

Certain opinions that I've found seem to indicate that Alders level of detail is comparable to 10mm and therefore may offer potentially a combination of the larger mass visual impression of 6mm while providing a detail close to that of 10mm…

BTW I've also seen it mentioned that Alders mix well with other makes of 6mm and I'm sure Leon knows whats he's talking about.

Also its fair to mention that Leon has been a big help to me on other sites with my search so apologies again for the confusion.

I agree with Last Hussar in that 10mm is my choice of weapon. It also surprises me how often I've heard the comment, "If I started over again…" usually from seasoned 15mm collectors. I find the size just right for the level of detail I'm comfortable to paint quickly.

Returning to the painting aspect, I think that some gamers make the mistake of trying to paint too much of the detail. It can be better to suggest the detail rather than actually try to show it, people will notice its absence less than they notice it done badly.

Taking a French line infantryman as an example, I omit the red piping around the lapels, cuffs and turnbacks. I recall observing a re-enacter at Salute one year and noticing how the piping virtually vanished at 20 yards. In my opinion you get a 'cleaner' look by omitting the piping rather than having lines of red that scale up to being the equivalent of about 2 inches wide. An exception would be with Legere regiments where I paint a white line at cuff level and then paint in the sleeve and cuff in dark blue from either side leaving a hairline of white showing, I then run a brush lightly loaded with white down the raised edge of the turnbacks.

DHautpol, good advice. One of the reasons painting smaller figures is easier.

Back to the Alders scale. The Old Guard Painting Service just got back to me and said they charge .60 per 6mm mini but .90 for Alders because "they're closer to 8mm"

Kind of ironic after the earlier conversation. While before Leon's statement I would have felt this fair enough considering several sources mentioned that they're closer to 10mm but since Leon had definitively stated they are 6mm is it justified to pay an extra .30 per mini.

Has this been the experience of those getting Alder painted by Old Guard?

DHautpol Thanks for that too. I do intend to paint my own figures after I commission paint some.

They charge xtra because they are painted up to greater detail. I have tried other painting services that were not nearly as good. You cannot paint the other "6mm barnds" to that detail.

I can appreciate Old Guards position. Less about the height and more to do with 'volume' my figures have more mass and detail, You can skip painting the detail of course but painters will always want to do a good, satisfying job if they can. Ive never believed that the primary attraction of 6mm is that the figures are cheaper and faster to paint, they are both of those things of course but the real value is the scale perspective of the smaller scales. I still think they should be appreciated as figures as well. Hopefully the end result is what matters.
L