"Hellenistic Thureophoroi" Topic

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Some pics of the grave steles from Sidon showing late Hellenistic soldiers. Interesting to note that the shield patterns are fairly simple -- white on the right and a contrasting colour on the left. Simple to paint without the need of transfers!
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Nice photos.

Of course Nick Sekunda (in the Montvert Ptolemaic army book) thinks that these represent all-white shields, and the "second colour" is shadow.

Your third pic – I'm not sure I've seen that one in colour before – looks to me like pretty strong evidence against that view, though. It's a very strong colour for "shading".

Having seen them in the 'flesh' I cannot agree with Nick that they are simply a shadow. The colour differences are quite obviously too much of a contrast to be just an artistic device

Very interesting. It doesn't look like shading to me.

Just briefly passing over this.

Look at the arms and legs. They seem to show shading. If that is considered a representative example for the rest of the artwork then the shield may or may not show intended shading.

The helmet shows shading as well.

Looking at the lower tunic stripes in the lower thigh/crotch it gives me the impression of highlighting where the legs are rather than stripes.

My impression is that the shield is shaded on the right side. It doesn't mean I am right but after looking at the artists expressions elsewhere, that's my impression.

BTW, Hi Simon.

Best,

Mike

Clearly the uncertainty means that Simon will have to paint a unit of each (shaded and coloured).

Hey, Simon,
Is the guy in that first picture possibly wearing mail? It's not clear from here, but, if so, wouldn't that make him one of the thorakitai? (I'm not sure of the difference, besides one wears body armor and another doesn't). Also, most figs I've seen of the thorakitai are in mail and not lino-thorax or something…had lino-thorax gone out of style and been replaced by mail by that time?

Yes, the guy in the first picture is wearing mail. He's the source for the original identification of the thorakitai as mailed thureophoroi in AMPW; more recently Nick Sekunda suggests he's a Romanized "imitation legionary". He is the only known figure thus equipped, though there are some later copies of Hellenistic paintings from Alexandria showing infantry with thureos in linen-or-leather armour, and a few similar depictions elsewhere.

I really don't think these shields are "shaded". I am a painter of canvas and metal. they don't show 3d style shading but a 2 dimensional shading that uses outlining. If the shields were painted like the rest of the figures then they should be simply outlined and painted with a slightly darker shade than the left side.

The ancients loved color and painted their statues in what we today might consider gaudy extravagance.

These are cool photos!! Thanks… I will need to link to these now.

I agree the idea of shadow is inconsistent with your pictures. The thureos is not folded in the center which might convey a dark half and a light half. Instead these seem to be specifically light blue and ochre from your colors--(although I will say I don't trust digital colors in room lighting). However if you posted a square swatch of what you thought the shaded half looked like from memory that would be awesome.

I have often felt that photos in the Monvert were not compelling to make this argument, but as a shield device for these types of shields quadrants and halves are excellent.

(Sorry for the transfer makers-- I just dont buy your snappy anchors and eagles and stuff for thureos-- maybe the head with wings, or thunderbolts from the Erotes tomb-- and the Erotes tomb has pastel tones in quadrants as well).

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Makes a man want to paint some more Thureophoroi! Looking at the photos, I think I'd want to go two-tone.

Two tone is natural for a thureos as it has a vertical rib which divides the surface.

I am actually more interested in a discussion regarding the depiction of torso armor. Any takers?

That 1st picture is a thorakitai in mail as I recall (dangerous to rely on my memory).

I do have some thureophoroi left to paint Simon, so maybe 2 tone is a good idea!

Using Hail Caesar I am trying to find a good role for these guys – the lists as they stand have them with the same values as 'ordinary' peltasts. Seems wrong to me. (Light) Medium infantry with long spear seems better.

Garry

I agree whole heartedly with those of you have commented that this does not look like shading. You can see where the artists have used shade and it is much more subtle than the relatively clear two tone of the shields.
On JJartist's point the yellow ochre colours on the second two figures are very obvious to the eye and look more or less like the photos. The blue or blue/grey colour on the first armoured figure (yes he is in mail) is probably slightly over-emphasised in the photo compared to what you see with the naked eye. Unfortunately the lighting in the museum is really poor.
It seems to me as if the artists had greater talent than to have attempted a simplistic two tone to denote a curved shade and probably in their original glory the colour would have been more obvious.
If you make it to Istanbul- well worth having a look yourself.
More thureophoroi and possibly imitation legionaries on my to do list!
I agree that the very clever shield patterns now being produced by the transfer makers are probably over engineered. But then I always preferred painting shields myself!

I'm with GurKahn and others in the anti-shading crowd. The first two had me thinking it WAS shading but after the third pic, it seems to be a second color (Yellow? Gold? Something that is horribly faded?). The fact that there is no fancy devices on the shield is no surprise either. I suspect shield devices take money or talent or both to have. So they would simply be reserved for the rich which translates nicely to the nobility and other officers.

I would almost certainly go with these being simple shield patterns, on the basis of the Greeks liking to decorate their shields, and the Gauls liking to decorate their thueroi, and the simple designs showing the Greek ideal of Classical Understatement in the face of Barbarian Bombast.

Now if you'll allow me to throw a wrench into the Thorakitai/Imitation Legionary conversation, what if the fellow pictured has merely purchased or looted a mail shirt? Hannibal can't have been the first person to think of using enemy gear.