"1800 Piedmontese Artillery" Topic

Hi,

I'm putting together a small Piedmontese brigade in 15mm as an allied force for my 1800 Austrians. I'm using 1805 Saxon infantry and artillery crew painted in Piedmontese colours, I have the flags, and I have the officers etc. I'll be using a mix of Old Glory and Eureka 15mm figures.

What I don't have yet is the artillery pieces. I am thinking that light Austrian guns would have been appropriate at this time, but I have no idea what colour the guns would have been painted.

So the question is… What colour are the guns and are Austrian 3pounders a good choice of gun?

Thanks in advance,
Colin

Dear Colin
The Piedmont 3-pdr was a copy of the Saxon 3-pdr Geschwindstuck regimental gun of the 7YW. It was not Austrian 3-pdrs.

The 3-pdr mountain gun was the precursor of the French AnXI 3-pdr.

Stephen

Colin
I am starting to gather material for my Revolutionary Wars project. Can you please advise where you obtained your information on the uniforms and flags of Piedmont, as I am also interested in doing a Piedmontese army and I haven't, so far, seen much on Piedmont.
Regards

AussieAndy, I googled and searched, managed to track down a few pictures and info on this site.

link

Whether its correct or not I've unsure, but for my purposes I'm happy to make do. I've recreated artwork so that I can get the flags printed, again I'm not sure exactly what flags the Piedmontese would have carried in 1800 when they faced the invading French.

Stephen, Sorry, I'm sure you've told me about the Saxon guns already but I couldn't remember. Any idea what colour the guns would have been? Which 15mm scale guns should I use? Any suggestions.

Colin

EC / AAndy

There used to be an Italian based site called bandsabaude.xoom.it that had everything one would want for the Kingdom of Sardinia and Piedmont from the mid 1700s to mid 1800's including the revolutionary periods.

Alas it is long gone… I can't even pull it up from Web archives. It contained all of the uniform information for infantry, artillery and cavalry as well as a detailed images of flags and cornets.

I have paper copies of the uniform information buried somewhere.

I also have an MS Word file with all of the flags of the regular and provincial infantry regiments. Afraid I never got around to the cavalry cornets.

If interested in the flags let me know.. they are sized for 6mm but the document makes a great reference and you can pretty much figure out how to customize according to your scale of choice if you feel handy and want to design your own.

Cheers!
Beeker

Sardinian army uniform link: link

Scroll down for the index link image buttons for the period desired.

Also have same links on my blog page for various 1796 battles and scenarios:

Dego: link

Voltri: link

Montenotte: link

Each of the above battles have scenario notes and AAR write up too. Just type in battle name for referenced AAR on blog search bar.

M aka WR

AHHA! BRAVO WP! C'est ca!

Colin, the site you referenced has a picture of a Piedmontese artillery piece (a bit above the artillery uniform plate). Definitely modeled on the Saxon Geschwindstuck. And apparently painted artillery olive.

Dear Colin
You will find information on the Piedmont 3-pdr in my article.

PDF link

So the colour suggested from the 1:3 scale model is green with black metalwork. It would probably be similar to Russian Artillery Green. It is not French Artillery Green.

Stephen

Thank you all for that information. Much appreciated.

Beeker, if you are prepared to send through the information that you have in electronic format, I would be grateful. My email address is:
avaningen at rk dot com dot au

Thanks again

Done – enjoy!

I'd like the flag info as well if possible…

cdbaillie at blueyonder dot co dot uk

Thanks for that. I've been setting up artwork for high quality flags, with French Revolutionary demi-brigade and Vendean Revolution flags already available for sale in 15 and 28mm scales. I'd love to add Italian states to the list and any info would help.

Still not sure what miniature guns I should use on the tabletop to represent the Piedmont artillery.

Colin

EB – done!

Just a note when looking at the file… depending on how the formatting appears on your screen, you will find a blue rectangle that appears in the middle of the two sides of the flag. This is to wrap around the pole.

These rectangles may 'float' and should be adjusted or deleted if printing.

Cheers!
Beeker

Beeker, got the file – Many thanks!!

I had some of those flags already but most are new to me. I'm creating artwork for printed flags for these at the moment, for 15 to 28mm scales. I'll post some previews when I get the chance.

Colin

Thank you Beeker.

Colin, where are your flags for sale?

Hi AussieAndy,

I don't have a site set up yet. I'll send you a catalogue. In the meantime you can have a look at some 15mm Revolutionary flags on this blog post… link

Colin

The Piedmont 3-pdr was a copy of the Saxon 3-pdr Geschwindstuck regimental gun of the 7YW. It was not Austrian 3-pdrs. The 3-pdr mountain gun was the precursor of the French AnXI 3-pdr.

Do you have a schematic for the Piedmont 3-pounder and a schematic of the AN XI 3-pounder so that the two can be compared?

B

Please look at the Smoothbore Ordnance Journal.
Stephen

Stephen's article is perfect for the info on the real artillery piece, but what miniature gun should I purchase? I can't see any manufacturer with a 3-pdr gun, except for the Austrian guns, which obviously are wrong.

Please look at the Smoothbore Ordnance Journal.

I've looked in the subject reference and I guess I missed it.

Could you point out where the schematic for the AN XI 3-pounder gun is in the reference?

B

Dear Brechtel
The colour plates and AnXI plans are in the printed version of the SOJ.
Stephen

So, unless that 'version' is purchased, we cannot see a comparison here?

That is too bad.

B

The 3-pdr mountain gun was the precursor of the French AnXI 3-pdr.

That has not been shown or demonstrated as the two field pieces look nothing alike.

Do you have a schematic for the Piedmont 3-pounder and a schematic of the AN XI 3-pounder so that the two can be compared?

This question was asked and the schematics have not been shown for a comparison. It would be very useful if a reference for the original drafts and schematics for both field pieces could be provided.

The colour plates and AnXI plans are in the printed version of the SOJ.

I have volume 5 and there is no schematic for the Piedmontese 3-pounder mountain gun, nor is there one for the AN XI 3-pounder mountain gun. There are color plates drawn, which are a secondary source, for the AN XI 3-, 6-, and 12-pounder guns, the AN XI 24-pounder (5.5-inch) howitzer, and the Gribeauval 4-, 12-, and 8-pounder. However, they are not in the same scale, are in three different scales, so the colored plates cannot be compared.

The color plates are nice, but not being presented in the same scale tends to negate some of the reference value of the plates, and the original schematics and plans are not referenced.

The best artillery references are the original schematics that are presented usually in black and white, not a modern rendering in color which is at best a secondary source.

B

Dear Sir
The ANXI 3-pdr is in the printer version of Smoothbore Ordnance Journal 5 Plate 5. I suggest you look at the plans and the model carefully. I was talking of the 3-pdr Piedmont Mountain Gun (affut traineau) and not the Geschwindstuck.

These were drawn from the original plans that I obtained from the Musee de L'Armee. I cannot publish these due to EU copyright. I understand there is different consideration in the US.

They were drawn to 1:24 scale and 1:12 scale. Reducing the 1:12 to 1:24 should not be beyond using a scanner.
Stephen

There is no similarity between the Piedmont 3-pounder as illustrated in Volume 5 and the AN XI 3-pounder in the color plate in Volume 5 as suggested.

The scales drawn are 1:24, 1:18, and 1:12 which does not allow for comparing the drawn colored plates.

The Musee de l'Armee does not give permission for publishing original material? I find that interesting. I would think they would be helpful in any historical research.

And the colored plates, while interesting, are not primary source material which is the best to use. The plates are more like an 'interpretation' especially without consistency in scales. In short they are not that helpful as reference material.

B

Dear Sir
This is a model of the Piedmont 3-pdr (referred to by the French and Russians as 2-pdr) Due to the difference in weight.

This was taken from the model in Turin.

I have drawn all my plates with a consistency of scales. These have been available for years but nobody has purchased these.

Remember that you can get more information with politeness than your veiled insults.
Stephen

You are not looking at the correct illustrations. You are looking at the 4-pdr Piedmont Geschwindstuck as shown in SOJ-6(18) pp64-65.

Stephen

great research as usual Dr. Summerfield – showing your expertise

Eclipsing binaries: I sympathise with your predicament in trying to find 15mm miniatures that approximate to the original for any artillery. I am only starting to get to grips with approximately realistic French pieces!

Unfortunately the Piedmont 3pdr/Saxon 4pdr model you are after is quite distinctive – and I would be more than surprised if you find anything out there that's close. It has a narrow wheel base, longish trail and there's that box the barrel sits in!

In your position this could go one of two ways. If I bow to my OCD side, I would obsessively take the diagrams that Stephen has kindly shared and model something based on spare bits and plastic card. The other way is I would say what the and use something that's wrong. I would opt for a French 4pdr. The Austrian 3pdr is too small and you may want to contrast it with your allies.

But as to which 4pdr model out there suits your purposes best… I wouldn't know where to start. I am currently using battle honours models which may no longer be generally available, and aren't quite right anyway.

Best of luck!

Matthew

Alas in 15mm there are no French AnXI ordnance has been produced. There are excellent models for artillery now finally being produced for 20mm and 28mm. These have been from plans that I have supplied.

However, it seems in UK that 15mm is now dead. I have not seen any new models being produced for the last 10 years. I could be wrong. Alas my armies are 15mm and I have no AnXI ordnance in the army having to use mostly minifigs Gribeauval Guns.

Stephen

Blue Moon do a passable 6pdr apparently (I am on the verge of buying). And their howitzer is closer to An XI than anything else (though I haven't seen many French howitzers that are close to even the Gribeauval design). Alas the AB version is a disappointment.

You are not looking at the correct illustrations. You are looking at the 4-pdr Piedmont Geschwindstuck as shown in SOJ-6(18) pp64-65.

Those pages in Volume 6 are about amusettes in the Netherlands. My reference was to Volume 5, as stated in the posting. Again, the Piedmont mountain piece bears no resemblance to the An XI 3-pounder. That was my point, along with the absence of actual schematics of the pieces concerned. And there have been no veiled insults, merely an inquiry about the material you posted and what you have referenced.

B

Dear Kevin
You are looking at the preprint and not the printed Journal. The preprint has not been corrected. It is a few pages before or after. You are just being …..

I ahve not had time to publish fully all my findings. You will also realise that it takes a great deal of time to produce scale plans. I have currently finished writing illustrating and publishing four 200+ page books this year and should be another for Christmas. As well as a full time job.
Stephen

I am just being…inquisitive. Nothing more, nothing less.

B

So, if I were to take a miniature gun, currently available and suitable for the larger 15/18mm figures, and if I were to trim the axle to give the narrower wheel base, then to use green stuff to build the box for the barrel, which model would be best to start from?

Please bare in mind that my modelling skills are quite good for basic scratch builds, but building an accurate model gun from scratch is more advanced than adding a bicorn hat to a 15mm figure that was wearing a shako, so any suggestions would be fantastic.

Anything you guys think would be reasonably close would do. As I said, I'm using Saxons as my Piedmontese infantry and there are uniform issues that I'm happy to ignore, so any gun that is even slightly close (and available to purchase)would be a great starting point for me.

This is very rough and ready, but here's my thoughts – based on my Battle Honours pieces.

The barrel is quite close to French 4 pdr in overall size (about 15mm), but you would need to clip the dolphins and the button off.

The carriage of the 4 pdr is a bit long (should be about 21mm based on the drawing of the Saxon piece)(which my BH model exaggerates), but it at least has a kink (to use the technical term) in it, like the Piedmont piece (but not the Saxon version).

But the wheels of French 4pdr are much too big, which affects the whole look. You could try finding something from spares, e.g. from a limber model – about 1cm diameter. The Austrian 3pdr is closer but still a bit big.

And of course the wheel base needs narrowing. Wheel to wheel about 8mm (based on the Saxon drawing as well)

The overall effect should be quite a dinky carriage, with a narrow wheel base, but with a big barrel in proportion.

Hope that helps.

As for miniatures, I'm not sure how many decent French 4pdrs are out there. Many manufacturers have the terrible habit of supplying a 8pdr carriage with a smaller barrel.

I think the BH guns are available from TimeCast – but bundled with crew. If so they are likely to be part of horse artillery packs.

Blue Moon do genuine 4drs (packs of 6 though). They are reviewed here: link

From this review the carriage is too long – but the wheels are undersize and might be close enough! The barrel could be a bit big (but then if everthing else is oversize, the proportions won't be…). This might not be a bad starting point.

Wow! Didn't realise I'd taken a month to do this. Where all my spare time gone?

Here's my attempt at pulling all your suggestions and comments together and putting a Piedmontese artillery piece on the table.

The gun is a converted Blue Moon French 4pdr (thanks, matthewgreen) with conversions (thanks, Steven Summerfield) and a Eureka Saxon artillery crew painted in what I hope is the correct colours (the figures look a lot brighter in my pictures due to the camera flash – honest!)

More pictures on my blog, Marengo1800, at this link…
link

Any comments would be welcome. Please be gentle.

Dear Coline
THat looks very good. Well done.
Stephen

I like when an idea ends like this – good job! Delighted to be of assistance.

Stephen – while you're here do you have any idea or suggestions of the paint that would have been used for artillery and baggage by the Kingdom of Sardinia-Piedmont from 1792-96?

Cheers!
Beeker

The Piedmont uniforms & flags site can now be found at link (last updated August 2014)