"What happens if my squad picks up an extra BAR/Bren?" Topic

I'm a squad leader somewhere in WW2. My squad picks up an extra BAR during a battle.

What happens next? Do we hang on to it? Are there regulations for surplus weapons to be dealt back to a supply depot? (Seems there must be).

I've read accounts where units had extra Bren or BAR's but it's always unclear if the given company or battalion commander simply let that slide or if there was official protocols for this.

You keep it.

I'm sure they would try to keep it. There were probably a lot of weapons used by a platoon that weren't on the TO&E.

Really it boils down to your CO, but most would happily see you keep it as long as ammo supply wasn't problematic.

You keep it until the little guy you assigned it to gets tired of lugging that 19-pound monster and 'accidently' drops it into a river :)

You keep it because it's the best LMG that you have available to you!

Keep it … use it … being a former PL and Co Cdr, I wouldn't have a problem with it …

Robert Bowen, in 'Fighting With The Screaming Eagles', mentions that after Normandy he picked up an extra BAR to improve his squad's firepower. However, the thing was so damned heavy he ditched it again soon after (before their drop at Eindhoven).

However, it was very common for British platoons to reduce their strength to two Sections, while retaining the third Bren under the direct control of the platoon commander. In Italy an entire division was issued a double-helping of Brens, thanks to the disbandment of the division's third brigade and the redistribution of the Brens therein.

it's always unclear if the given company or battalion commander simply let that slide or if there was official protocols for this.

That sums it up, I think. There probably were official protocols about such things, and some officers followed the protocols and others didn't.

A German NCO would probably discard the BAR, unless he really needs the extra firepower to add to the two MG42's in his squad.

Anecdotal stories from a grandparent had one squad of GIs lugging four of the things around Germany just before the surrender. Their CO didn't have a clue. Things were pretty informal at that point.

Depends if you've got enough warm bodies on hand to drop two riflemen to act as gunner and assistant for it. If your Sqd/Sec is acting as a base of fire for the other two, you probably can, but less so if you're leading one of those other two. There's also perhaps a difference in keeping a BAR going to a Bren, as a BAR was a beefed up rifle so could be more easily handled by one bloke, while a Bren is an LMG proper and really needs two men at least to deliver its capability. Never stopped someone picking up a Bren and charging at the enemy on their own of course, but those were the exceptions rather than the norm.

Gary

There are some practical issues, like needing special ammo pouches for BAR ammo, whereas standard Universal pouches take Bren mags.

But as above, it really is at the whim of the CO.

Some COs may take surplus weapons off one subunit to give to another of course.

Take an extra BAR? Surely you'd be trying to drop the one you have! *Grin*

The point about the weight of the Bren is exactly right – my uncle (who is still healthy and hale at age 92) was with the Regina Rifles and was a crack shot missed every target the day they were picking the Bren gunner – he had not intention of lugging the Bren gun up and down all those hills so he stuck to his trusty Lee Enfield!

That's a good story Frederick

In a book I just finished about the second battle of Pork Chop Hill in Korea a veteran recalled that in his squad, at least, the newest replacement was always assigned the BAR.

I should clarify I meant the squad picks up a weapon they have ammo for. I'm sure a commonwealth squad wouldn't have much use out of a BAR :)

The responses about matches what I figured and what seems to be what I am reading. Very good note on the bren pouches and so forth. I suppose they could be acquired but it's a bit harder to lug around extra Bren mag's.

From a modelling standpoint you need to be carefull. If I recall a British platoon had all men carrying a few (6?) mags for the Bren. In moving on foot carring another equivalent number of rounds is a lot of burden and would have consequences. An extra BAR would be used as a rifle due to low ammo suppleies but if the squad was assulted which is where rate of fire tends to count but is only for a few seconds it would help. This would heve to be reflected correctly in your simulation. Would the encumbering help or hinder skimishing tactics? Can a bar shoot a rifle grenades?

Clearly nn a static location an extra BAR may help if ammo could be stockpiled so could be used to full effect.

In a book I just finished about the second battle of Pork Chop Hill in Korea a veteran recalled that in his squad, at least, the newest replacement was always assigned the BAR.

Sucks to be the new guy. Up until you get some corn-fed Nebraska farmboy who bench-presses cows, and then it sucks to be a Korean or Chinese.

@UshCha: I don't believe the BAR was ever fitted with the grenade launcher adaptor, and man what a heavy pig!

Is giving the BAR to the new bloke really a good idea? Theoretically, every recruit should be worked up on the small arms he's likely to encounter, but that didn't always happen. The BAR was a tricky thing to master, so throwing it into the hands of the least experienced man in your Squad, especially if it's your only such weapon, seems rather counterintuitive. I read a comment recently from the USMC in which one Div at least complained they weren't getting enough trained BAR men in replacement drafts, so they probably were tasking new guys with the weapon.

Gary

Bren guns were given to the most experienced squaddie, as was the mg34/42 for the germs….
if the Americans gave the BAR to the newest replacement (which I somewhat doubt), then there is a message there somewhere…;-)

"If I recall a British platoon had all men carrying a few (6?) mags for the Bren."

I can't recall if it was one or two magazines per man (I think it was two?), the assistant Bren gunner had more of course in his additional bren pouches.

That is one of the problem with magazine fed LMGs, the ammo is much more heavy to carry than link, another advantage of GPMGs. Both the (loaded) Bren and MG42 weigh about the same, but you get about 50% more linked rounds per kg than for magazines.

I don't even really think of the BAR as an LMG, it is just a fancy (and very heavy) automatic rifle. Personally I'd take a Garand over a BAR any day. Armies do periodically like to pretend ARs can function as LMGs, just look how successful the LSW was:) or even the HB variant FALs.

You think BAR and Brens are bad, the worst i ever lugged around was the bloody 84mm Charlie G.

Actually, thinking of FALS and captured weapons….

iirc in the Falklands, Argentinian FALs were a popular acquistion with the British as they could fire NATO 7.62 on full auto without mucking around with matchsticks jammed in the mechanism that the L1A1 required. However, you needed to hang onto your SLR as well, as 'losing' your issue rifle was deeply frowned upon.

"You think BAR and Brens are bad, the worst i ever lugged around was the bloody 84mm Charlie G."

LOL. I think the most awkward bit of military kit I've had to lug around (in my dressing up and playing at soldiers) was an 81mm mortar tube.

Even a Bren or an MG42 is quite heavy to carry around all day, though. Some of my 'Russian' pals have a wheeled Maxim, now that is heavy….

Two Bren mags per rifleman (six), four mags per member of the Gun group (three), total 24 plus 1 in the gun. No.3 Commando did double their allocation of Bren guns for Normandy, presumably by giving each Assault Sub-Sec (the equivalent of a Rifle Sec)one for the Rifle Group as well as the Gun Group.

Gary

I wonder if ammo supply is that much of a concern when considering adding a second BAR to a squad. Late-war Marine squads consisted of 13 guys, 3 of whom had BARs. Did the Marines have access to more ready ammo than the Army, possibly due to shorter supply lines (i.e., shorter to the beach on Tarawa than all the way back to the beaches of Normandy)?

I think this topic is being a bit "OverThunk" … Take it from a former Grunt's POV. You'd most likely pick it up and use it. Ammo resupply is always a concern. In some cases troops would take ammo off the dead or WIAs being medievac'd. If the WIA was a BAR/Bren gunner, you'd keep the weapon most likely. Never knew any combat leader who would turn down the firepower. One of my Mech Inf Squads had 2 5 man Fire Teams + the SL. Each F/Tm had an M249 SAW and an M203 GL. And either an M60 MG or M47 MAW. So if you think about it, 3 out of 5 had a "Hvy Wpn" … Which ever Tm was packing the M60, the other Tm humped the M47. The other troops in the F/Tms carried M16s, LAWs, Claymores, etc. based on the mission. Plus extra ammo for the M60 and M47. No that being said, if we ran across another M60, etc. we might just throw it in the track. Or damage it so it could not be used by the enemy. The VC were very adept at taking things like expended M72 launchers, etc., and making them a booby traps. So again, the short answer to the original question is – Use it … A good combat leader is decisive … "Lead … Follow … or get the out of the way !"

Bren No.2 and the L/Cpl frequently carried the chest-rig with another four mags and could also sometimes carry boxes of additional mags.

Where there was an extra Bren in the Section, they seem to have been allocated as an additional gun to the Section's Gun Group. I.e. they didn't form a second Gun Group. It's anyone's guess if the second gun was allocated another man as No.2, or whether the Gun Group's existing No.2 would cover both guns.

Re Commandos – there are also examples from 3 Cdo Bde in Burma doubling up the Brens in the Support Sub-Sec.

In RM Wingfields book "The Only way Out" his NCO describes the Bren ammo being carried in a box by the No2 "we always carry them in a box with the gun, so that we don't get them scattered in a hot spot"

Other kit was – left pouch (both worn high so as not to interfere with crawling)2 bars of chocolate, boiled sweets and a tin of cigarettes. Right pouch (he was right handed) 77 grenade (smoke) and ammo clips for SMLE. 2 x 36 grenades on rear belt right side (pins firmly bent out)Right trouser thigh pocket was sewn back on the leg so it was more accessible when prone – more ammo. Left thigh pocket – letters etc, field dressing pocket empty – dressing was tucked into his blouse (shirt). Blouse pockets, eating irons, cigarette case and more ammo.

I suppose I'm thinking of it more along the lines of adopting a stray dog, someone needs to walk it (lug it round), feed it (lug the ammo) and clean up (maintenance, spares). If you're carrying it for a short spell, days say, then it won't be too big a deal, but if you're using it longer term then someone gets it assigned to them, and then they aren't doing what they were doing before, and you aren't going to get a replacement for them on that basis. If the Sqd/Sec is motoring around in a truck or halftrack then the weight and extra ammo consumption won't matter as much as if you're walking.

The 1945 USMC Squad manual reckons on 21 mags for the BAR in each Fire Team, 9 with the BAR man, 12 with his assistant, who could palm off two each to the Cpl and rifleman who completed the Squad. I don't know if that was a reflection of the earlier Squad orgs pre Fire Teams.

Nice info on the Bren above as well.

Gary

My 'anchor' was an M60E3 or E4 (I forget exactly which version we were issued on the boats, pretty sure we trained on the E3). Heavy pig, and all I had to do was stand there with the beast balanced on the top of the sail!

but that beat the heck out of trying to stop a speedboat with an M16!

An M60 was a pig, hence we referred to the Gunner as a "Hog Humper" … Of course the first rifle I was issued as a cadet was an M-14 … Sort of a slightly lighter weigh BAR will no auto fire …

Besides extra Brens, I seem to remember reading somewhere (maybe it was in the old WRG 1925-1950 rules?) that British Paras routinely carried captured MG 42 at the section level. Can anyone confirm that?

I dunno about 'routine', but they were certainly trained on enemy weapons, as were the Commandos, so could and did use them if available. The Commandos certainly used a lot of captured weapons during their time in Siege of Dunkirk, Sep-Oct 44. However, they did cause problems of enemy/friendly recognition and they were left behind when the Commandos moved on to Walcheren and elsewhere.

That is more likely to have been restricted to Arnhem, where there were problems of resupply for standard weapons that could be alleviated by using captured stocks. There may well be other examples but I'd agree that routine would not be the case.

Gary

Gary … even Mech Grunts have to walk to do their job properly … Infantrymen do their best work on the ground … I was Rifle PL in the 101 and as I said, later Commanded a Mech Co.[M113] … The advantage of Mech is you could carry more stuff because you have a track, M113 in this case. But … but … to do the job properly Grunts have to dismount and walk/run/crawl/etc. sometimes for some distance. Plus as every Grunt knows sometimes a track can't traverse all the terrain you are going to have to cover. Or like in the 101, sometimes there is no LZ/place to land the choppers(or it would take too long to rappel the whole unit in) … Or no DZ to drop in … so in any case you are walking. As my troops used to say transport by "Black Cadillac" … your boots …

And again, if you capture an enemy weapon, like an MG, Panzerfaust, etc. … you'd probably use it … if you have no more ammo, you chuck it/damage it so it can't be used again by the enemy … Even the USMC used captured IJF weapons like their LMGs, on Guadalcanal. They loaded them up on Amtracks. And would speed the vehicles with Marine packing the MGs along with their own weapons to places where they IJF were trying to penetrate/breach … And the "Jap's" small arms were generally considered junk … But with their predilection for charging and/ or dieing in place. Leaving alot of weapons where they fell. Even the USMC [ ] figured out it was a good idea to pick up things like LMGs. And used them until the ran out of ammo or malfunctioned …

I'm sure I read somewhere about British paras using captured MGs fairly extensively in Sicily – not sure how reliable that is though.

That jared my brain lose Dom.

In "On to Berlin" JAmes Gavin talked about a truck load of Pamnzerfausts that where captured and used. I think it was in Sicily, but it has been several decades since I last read that. Paratroops versis tanks i have not problem seeing that happen.

In Desert storm we carried an iraqi LMG for about 15 minutes until the CSM caugt us. He in no way bought our its a back up oidea, made us run it over woith the M577.

Owen

That reminds me: By way of a slightly more recent example, the Commandos (and at least one of the Para Bns) took double the normal number of GPMGs down South in 1982, as well as extra MILAN firing-posts and .50 Cals, over and above their usual TOE. The Comamndos also ditched their CG 84mms (desipte initial successes against LVTPs and warships) in order to carry more 7.62 link and MILAN rounds.

Running over enemy weapons and equipment with a tracked vehicle is pretty much the best way to "damage" a weapon and make it unusable … Next to chucking it into deep water … or taking C-4 to it …

Next thing that happens: somebody starts grousing about having to carry the extra ammo for it!

The griping about carrying anything extra starts as you're loading up or disembarking, or, etc. …

Crapgame: [Muttering in the minefield] Coulda been in the States playing ping-pong; volleyball… Plenty of broads… Who the hell needs all this? Gonna get my knife & get the hell outta here. Eaaa, lousy equipment! Now I gotta lift up this CANNON; carry it all the way to the front line someplace. Damned thing is heavier that Kelsey's burgers!

I heard a story once, probably apocraphyl, about a platoon that was lounging about this broken down German tank. It had been abandoned for mechanical failure. There were a couple of guys who were mechanics in the platoon and they got the thing running and took it with them for a little bit until they dropped it off at Btn HQ. They figured it was a better idea than getting occasionally shot at by their own guys. The reason they even bothered was typical-- It was just so neat to do.

Platoons started D- day with a lot of extras men and equipment. So until they got pulled out of line you find whatever the commander wanted (extra MG, C4, flamethrowers ect.

I was reading an article that asked an infantry vet about his experiences. he was asked about using enemy weapon and he stated no that would be a really bad ideal as those around you would have assumed that the Germans had infiltrated behind the lines or in them so you would get mortars or worst.

Precisely.
Some veterans are prone to over emphasising some things.
Makes for a better story.
Others are a bit more realistic and will laugh at the idea of using a "shoot me I'm enemy" weapon.
Most were much more interested in survival than killing.
Much more interested in that lighter weapon which didn't draw attention rather than that big powerful one.

There's a book written by a german sniper.
He started off as a machine gunner.
Realised they were prime targets – as the main firepower in a german squad and had high casualty rates.
Deciding he wanted to live and he better change jobs was how he became a sniper.
A pretty effective one if the book is to be believed.

' and ammo clips for SMLE.'
No 'clips' for the SMLE, 'chargers' dear boy, 'chargers'

John

Someone had a really interesting site which was a collection of photos of soldiers with captured weapons. Can't find it again now.

had stuff like Germans crewing a .30 cal Browning, plenty of Jerries with SVT rifles and PPSH of course, Soviets with MP40 and Brit's toting Panzerfausts.

A lot could be posed or situational of course.