"Just let them Froth" Topic

It should be pointed out that you don't fight prejudice and stigmatization by being to shy to publicly identify with the stigmatized people.

I don't think anyone cares who the editors "really" are and I think that the few people who have made unkind comments about them are idiots. I certainly don't think anyone's private life needs to be made public.

But if TMP is indeed employing people who are highly stigmatized in ways that would make it hard for them to otherwise find work, then that, to me, would be HUGELY POSITIVE point in TMP and Bill's favor. And it makes me wonder why Bill wouldn't publicly acknowledge that charity work that he's talked about openly both here and elsewhere.

The central plank of the Frothers accusation is that you also own and run a particular non-gaming site under a pseudonym.

It's really none of their damn business.

I agree with Zakalwe64.

"Bill – to be honest I couldn't care less what else you might get up to on the web nor where you might have found the recent co-editors. If you're not hurting anyone then its your business."

Really, you don't care? Then why bring it up/post it?

"The central plank of the Frothers accusation is that you also own and run a particular non-gaming site under a pseudonym."

What would that have to do with TMP and why is it relevant? What any member here or the Editor does outside the scope of this site is their business. That you feel you are 'owed' an explanation or answer is laughable.

What would that have to do with TMP and why is it relevant? What any member here or the Editor does outside the scope of this site is their business. That you feel you are 'owed' an explanation or answer is laughable.

To paraphrase what I said in the Parlor, -stirrers who want to stir up for the sake of sticking it to the Editor.

TMP is in fact a web-site for war gaming and associated war gaming issues. Bill is to be applauded (and yes Bill, I don't have a paid account, though I actually will get around to getting one).

This thread is non-war gaming but with vitriol and disdain. There are other non war game threads, a lot like "Needs more boobies", but that thread is a lot more enjoyable (to me).

Bill and staff, I take my hat off to you. I enjoy TMP. Whatever other site and those that talk about other issues and act in such a mean fashion are to be abhorred, there's not much that can be done with that part of the human race.

Editor Bill, keep doing what you are doing. Take a step back and realize that you are above such puerile diatribe.

Bob "Maresciallo"

AMENDMENTS TO PENAL LAW SECTION 240.30

GOVERNOR ANDREW M. CUOMO HAS SIGNED INTO LAW CHAPTER 188 OF THE LAWS OF 2014, WHICH AMENDS PENAL SECTION 240.30 (1) TO CORRECT THE DEFICIENCIES IN FORMER SUBDIVISION 1 OF THAT SECTION. THOSE DEFICIENCIES CAUSED THE COURT OF APPEALS TO STRIKE DOWN THE FORMER SECTION (1) AS UNCONSTITUTIONAL EARLIER THIS YEAR. THE LAW HAS NOW BEEN REDRAFTED IN A MANNER TO WITHSTAND ANY CONSTITUTIONAL CHALLENGES TO THAT SECTION.
SUBDIVISION ONE NOW PROVIDES THAT A PERSON IS GUILTY OF AGGRAVATED HARASSMENT IN THE SECOND DEGREE WHEN,
WITH INTENT TO HARASS ANOTHER PERSON, THE ACTOR EITHER:
COMMUNICATES, ANONYMOUSLY OR OTHERWISE, BY TELEPHONE, BY COMPUTER OR ANY OTHER ELECTRONIC MEANS, OR BY MAIL, OR BY TRANSMITTING OR DELIVERING ANY OTHER FORM OF COMMUNICATION, A THREAT TO CAUSE PHYSICAL HARM TO, OR UNLAWFUL HARM TO THE PROPERTY OF, SUCH PERSON, OR A MEMBER OF SUCH SAME PERSON'S FAMILY OR HOUSEHOLD AS DEFINED IN SUBDIVISION ONE OF SECTION 530.11 OF THE CRIMINAL PROCEDURE LAW, AND THE ACTOR KNOWS OR REASONABLY SHOULD KNOW THAT SUCH COMMUNICATION WILL CAUSE SUCH PERSON TO REASONABLY FEAR HARM TO SUCH PERSON'S PHYSICAL SAFETY OR PROPERTY, OR TO THE PHYSICAL SAFETY OR PROPERTY OF A MEMBER OF SUCH PERSON'S SAME FAMILY OR HOUSEHOLD; OR
CAUSES A COMMUNICATION TO BE INITIATED ANONYMOUSLY OR OTHERWISE, BY TELEPHONE, BY COMPUTER OR ANY OTHER ELECTRONIC MEANS, OR BY MAIL, OR BY TRANSMITTING OR DELIVERING ANY OTHER FORM OF COMMUNICATION, A THREAT TO CAUSE PHYSICAL HARM TO, OR UNLAWFUL HARM TO PROPERTY OF, SUCH PERSON, A MEMBER OF SUCH PERSON'S SAME FAMILY OR HOUSEHOLD AS DEFINED IN SUBDIVISION ONE OF SECTION 530.11 OF THE CRIMINAL PROCEDURE LAW, AND THE ACTOR KNOWS OR REASONABLY SHOULD KNOW THAT SUCH COMMUNICATION WILL CAUSE SUCH PERSON TO REASONABLY FEAR HARM TO SUCH PERSON'S PHYSICAL SAFETY OR PROPERTY, OR TO THE PHYSICAL SAFETY OR PROPERTY OF A MEMBER OF SUCH PERSON'S SAME FAMILY OR HOUSEHOLD.
THIS AMENDMENT IS EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY AND APPLIES TO CONDUCT OCCURRING ON OR AFTER TODAY'S DATE. ANY PREVIOUS INSTRUCTIONS REGARDING THE ENFORCEMENT OF PL 240.30 (1) SHOULD BE DISREGARDED.

In the same vein, in what way is an offhand comment by Editor Hebber that she is single pertinent to the editorial functions of TMP?

My sincere apologies for writing that unnecessary comment regarding my personal status. Mentioning that I was single was, indeed, inappropriate and unprofessional. It was the very first thing I said here. I did not intend to be controversial, it was just my way of 'breaking the ice'.

A THREAT TO CAUSE PHYSICAL HARM TO, OR UNLAWFUL HARM TO THE PROPERTY OF, SUCH PERSON, OR A MEMBER OF SUCH SAME PERSON'S FAMILY OR HOUSEHOLD AS DEFINED IN SUBDIVISION ONE OF SECTION 530.11 OF THE CRIMINAL PROCEDURE LAW, AND THE ACTOR KNOWS OR REASONABLY SHOULD KNOW THAT SUCH COMMUNICATION WILL CAUSE SUCH PERSON TO REASONABLY FEAR HARM TO SUCH PERSON'S PHYSICAL SAFETY OR PROPERTY, OR TO THE PHYSICAL SAFETY OR PROPERTY OF A MEMBER OF SUCH PERSON'S SAME FAMILY OR HOUSEHOLD; OR
CAUSES A COMMUNICATION TO BE INITIATED ANONYMOUSLY OR OTHERWISE, BY TELEPHONE, BY COMPUTER OR ANY OTHER ELECTRONIC MEANS, OR BY MAIL, OR BY TRANSMITTING OR DELIVERING ANY OTHER FORM OF COMMUNICATION, A THREAT TO CAUSE PHYSICAL HARM TO, OR UNLAWFUL HARM TO PROPERTY OF, SUCH PERSON, A MEMBER OF SUCH PERSON'S SAME FAMILY OR HOUSEHOLD AS DEFINED IN SUBDIVISION ONE OF SECTION 530.11 OF THE CRIMINAL PROCEDURE LAW, AND THE ACTOR KNOWS OR REASONABLY SHOULD KNOW THAT SUCH COMMUNICATION WILL CAUSE SUCH PERSON TO REASONABLY FEAR HARM TO SUCH PERSON'S PHYSICAL SAFETY OR PROPERTY, OR TO THE PHYSICAL SAFETY OR PROPERTY OF A MEMBER OF SUCH PERSON'S SAME FAMILY OR HOUSEHOLD.

How can that apply to what is going on as noone has actually threatened Bill on Frothers. Unless you are talking about certain threats made on Frothers by certain members of TMP which were disgusting and vile in their base nature.

Or threats made by TMP members on less public parts of TMP. Once you are a paid up member MarescialloDiCampo you too can see how TMP members can be just as unpleasant as members of other forums.

Alternatively, this information, could have been taken out of context, which is I guess very easy to do. However, as I now appear to be locked out for presumably referring to something in the public domain, perhaps a little to close to the truth.

What Big Jim is referring to is that someone has broken forum rules and posted a screenshot from the Lounge to the Frothers forum.

Obviously, someone does not have a sense of honor.

Editor, if they had any honor they would have stayed away from TMP instead of trolling and harassing here.

I don't post on or have TMP talk on my font page because I really don't care to see the usual drama that unfolds on it. However this has spilled into other areas of TMP so I decided to check it all out. I looked at Frothers (I have checked them out before, just not my cup of tea)and here and examined it all as far as I felt I needed to. Bill is a big boy and after many years of running an internet forum I am sure his skin has grown thick. In this case however, I think he is more interested in protecting the other editors from what is just plain harassment. If this involved trafficking or endangering children I would be right there with his detractors. But all he is doing is trying to protect the privacy of others. Ham handedly yes but he is trying. I think the whole problem here is that Bill is not the one being hurt. The ones being hurt are people that should not be in the firing line between Bill and his detractors. Take pot shots at Bill all you want, that's between you and him, leave the others out of it. OK back off TMP Talk for me…

What Big Jim is referring to is that someone has broken forum rules and posted a screenshot from the Lounge to the Frothers forum.

Obviously, someone does not have a sense of honor.

If what Big Jim said is right though you have a duty to punish those who have used threatening tones under your own rules Bill.
It is up to you ultimately though.

He will, I think. The past few days have been a locked account massacre, including an advertiser who shot himself in the foot big time over this.

If what Big Jim said is right though you have a duty to punish those who have used threatening tones under your own rules Bill.
It is up to you ultimately though.

I didn't notice anything and no complaints had come in last I checked, but I will doublecheck that topic when I have some free time. (I'm training one of the newer editors at the moment.)

If what Big Jim said is right though you have a duty to punish those who have used threatening tones under your own rules Bill.

I have removed two instances of "kick his ass."

The central plank of the Frothers accusation is that you also own and a particular non-gaming site under pseudonym.

It's really none of their damn business.

We'll take that as a "yes" then.

You can take it as a yes or a no or even a maybe, it΄s still none of your business.

That, and the lack of a negation should not be assumed to be an affirmation.

We'll take that as a "yes" then.

We can assume that "Frothers Did It And Ran Away" is also a pseudonym?

He comes from a long line of Aways. The Away family once held a monopoly on the North Sea fur trade, you know.

We'll take that as a "yes" then.

And here is where it gets even more stupid….

Telling someone that it's none of their business, and their immediate response is "Okay, we'll take that as a yes then". Which is what obviously "they" wanted to hear.

Bill, I think the whole thing is at the point now, where no matter how you are answer, you are in a damned if you do/don't situation with them.

1: You answer "YES, I am that pseudonym, and run that site, etc…", and you've just cranked up the weirdometer, which then gives them a blank check to go nuts on you….(and they will…even more so than they are already)…..

2: You answer "NO"…and they say "HE'S LYING!!!!"

3: You say "It's none of your business", and "they" decide to "make it their business", and keep slinging mud and more and more theories, and accusations.

4: You decided NOT to say anything at all, and it becomes them saying "See?!…By being silent on the subject, he admits it!!!!"…

There's really no real way out of this, other than to ignore it and let it die…#4 is the best option, I believe…It doesn't matter what you say or do, they are going to believe whatever they want to….

It's up there with my DoM thinking "That the moon missions were faked." All the evidence in the world won't convince her….Simply because she wasn't alive when it happened and she's watched a couple of videos on youtube….

I completely agree with Murphy.

I too agree with Murphy

What I find truly creepy in this whole mess are the Inspector Clouseau types "over there" who take hours searching the internet tracking down … stuff that brings them so much joy.
The mind set over there is hatred for TMP so they believe anything. "Deny you were a guard at Andersonville! I dare you!"

And the Clarence Darrows and Perry Masons who consider themselves skilled interrogators. They creep me out too.

Agree with Murphy.

I agree with Murphy and Winston. Oh, and with me too.

Agreement is such a beautiful thing….

Ain΄t it though?

Bill, I think that's a bit extreme locking my account for suggesting you could put a stop to all this simply by confirming or denying and then drawing a conclusion when you declined to. I thought I expressed my initial suggestion quite equitably without resorting to wild insults or threats like certain other members who seem to have avoided the DH simply because they have martialled those insults and threats on your behalf.

If you're going to overlook blatant breaking of forum rules by your sycophants and lock the accounts of people who suggest you could be handling this better then why bother allowing these threads at all? Just nuke them and hope it will all go away.

I think that's a bit extreme locking my account…

We don't need Frothers over here trolling, thank you…

So 6mm vs 15mm?

For heaven's sake, Bill. I've been a member here for many years, only ever been DH'd once, was given a free supporting membership by you and paid for one subsequently. I adopted the Frothers Did It And Ran Away moniker after you claimed the members objecting to Tango's posting were all Frother agents provocateurs and kept because I liked the ring of it. Before that my handle was Alex Kulic because, you know, its my name.

Banning someone because the word Frother is in their username smacks of paranoia. As far as I can see I've not broken any forum rules whereas some who have are posting freely.

And I've never been a member of Frothers in my life but you are certainly tempting me to be.

Sounds like a legit reasoning on his part….I think the locking is uncalled for….

But then again…that's just my opinion…

In point of fact, Murphy, that's three accounts I've now had locked on this page (hence the slight variance in username each time I've posted) – doubtless this one will be too which must be some kind of record.

I can take a hint but if this is how you intend to treat longstanding members who just suggested clarification on your part would put an end to this kerfuffle then I think you, Bill, need to take a chill pill.

Sayanora, TMP.

yessir now that is a gaming biscuit. Cup of tea and a caramel wafer, gamers heaven.

I adopted the Frothers Did It And Ran Away moniker after you claimed the members objecting to Tango's posting were all Frother agents provocateurs and kept because I liked the ring of it.

Of course, I never said that. I did point it, correctly, that there were Frothers who were egging it on. They talked about it openly on their forum.

If I were you, I would pick a membername that had a more reputable ring to it…

While Irn bru is the drink of the gods

and also a great hangover cure, its is not a wargamers drink. Those orange stains will burn through an inch of steel.

Editor:

If I were you, I would pick a membername that had a more reputable ring to it…

Really Bill, that is your advice? That is like the Good Morning Vietnam joke about how it is hard to find a Vietnamese man named Charlie, so instead we ask people randomly if they are the enemy and if they say yes we shoot them. What are we doing here?

• We have thread after thread talking about "the frothers", many of these threads started or perpetuated by you.
• We have members who are getting their accounts locked, dawghaused, banned, whatever – now because you don't like their names…
• We have you shutting off access to the website for the bulk of the membership randomly and with little explanation.

Look at this objectively, what is doing more direct damage to TMP's community right now – the overt actions by "the frothers" or your actions trying to curtail their influence?

I don't know or care how any of this started but I do know that it is negatively impacting my use of this resource (TMP).

Cheers,

The Bandit

We have thread after thread talking about "the frothers", many of these threads started or perpetuated by you.

Aren't there only four or five? Two started by me to answer questions raised by Frothers? Only one of which is recent.

We have members who are getting their accounts locked, dawghaused, banned, whatever – now because you don't like their names…

To be fair, we also have Frothers publicly calling for people to create sock puppet accounts over here. There are also Frothers who are trolling here, and boasting about it over there. I'm trying to do the best I can in moderating, but if someone gets locked, they can easily get unlocked if they just talk to me and explain. Many have already.

We have you shutting off access to the website for the bulk of the membership randomly and with little explanation.

We did that on Wednesday and Thursday evenings, with announcements on the homepage. I don't think it's necessary now, as this flame war seems to be dying out.

Pete Melvin – that looks like a bottle of…well. :)

If your…well…is bright orange you need to see a medic, stat

Editor:

Aren't there only four or five?… Only one of which is recent.

I count 11 in TMP Talk that either began because of or came to include this distraction:
• Farewell to TMP!
• Just let them Froth
• How not to get upset on/about TMP
• Odd Question
• Drive-by and Stalking
• Did Editor Claire Run a Dodgy Dating Service?
• Drive By???
• Supporting members only able to post to forums?
• So Who Broke TMP again again???
• TMP Worldwide?
• TMP is not "going away"

Two started by me to answer questions raised by Frothers?

Yeah… and what was the practical purpose of those? Someone on another forum is saying nasty things about you so you post a thread on your own website saying, "it ain't true, really really!" See thing is, me, the typical audience member, doesn't care. Why don't I care? Because I am not even aware of the thing in the first place so even if I wanted to care I couldn't. Now that you've made me aware of it, I still don't care but it has brought it up for general discussion and so the posts and threads on the matter keep coming. Especially because you rarely start a thread on any topic so it gets a lot of attention when you do.

To be fair, we also have Frothers publicly calling for people to create sock puppet accounts over here.

Sock puppet accounts are legal by your rules and you've even encouraged them at times so I don't see how they can be good Monday through Thursday but bad on Friday if you get my meaning. Democracy can't be good all the time but bad when a country elects someone we don't like. It might be inconvenient but either you are for or against democracy and similarly for or against sock puppets.

There are also Frothers who are trolling here, and boasting about it over there.

[Emphasis added by me]

I don't know why I should care if they are bragging on some other website about trolling on TMP, that does not influence my world nor my TMP experience.

Regarding them trolling, you've maintained for years and years that you believe this forum should be largely unmoderated. Threads don't have to be kept on-topic, the forum rules are either very liberal, very general or only enforced when the infraction is either quite blatant or someone has complained about it a lot.

Now all of a sudden you are:

I'm trying to do the best I can in moderating…

Why? What was different a week ago that for the decade leading up to it you were determined not to moderate these forums and now you are determined to moderate these forums?

And this moderation is taking a form that is at odds with the forum rules that have defined how the place works up until now. In this thread you're calling people "trolls" but according to the forum rules that is name calling and is not allowed.

These people you say are trolls may be trolls but if you apply different, unwritten rules and standards now because you are in a dispute with some other forum community all you do is frustrate and confuse your membership which is both clearly happening and displayed in this and other threads.

but if someone gets locked, they can easily get unlocked if they just talk to me and explain. Many have already.

(Again emphasis mine)

Many? Really? You've banned / locked / whatever "many" accounts that turned out to be just regular members, i.e. friendly fire. That right there should tell you that the methods used were ineffective and harmful.

We did that on Wednesday and Thursday evenings, with announcements on the homepage.

Yep, one line with no explanation mixed in with all the other news of the day on Wednesday. On Thursday there was an explanation without context which didn't help much more since many of us had no idea what the heck "drive by" was supposed to mean or why this was occurring. That wasn't useful to many of us and being basic members we aren't even in a position to post at that time to inquire of the general populous as to what it means. I realize a PM can be sent to you but that begs the question as to why it wasn't made more clear and prominent in the first place.

I don't think it's necessary now, as this flame war seems to be dying out.

Or the other side has just realized they don't need to aggressively screw with TMP because after a small amount of disruption TMP screws with itself.

Look, hopefully this all goes away but the "solutions" applied to this just demonstrated that if some random group of people on the internet get frustrated with you, they can convince you very easily to do harm to your own website and community without much effort on their part. Make up some rumors apparently and they can get you to respond, create a couple fake accounts and post some pot stirring comments or threads and you'll ensure it impacts the entire user base of TMP.

If this was a "flame war" as you call it, then they won, cause they redirected all your energy and a lot of this communities attention towards their agenda. In the future I hope should such thing either continue or happen again, more restraint is used and perhaps the damage can be more contained.

Cheers,

The Bandit

Well said Bandit

Or a bourbon biscuit, theyre good for a dunking

Just as an aside, where is TMP 4.0?

I recall the push for supporting memberships in 2013 was to hire more help to push out 4.0.

The only "improvement" has been the Ignore feature (ahem) and all the squabbling, drama, and bugs associated with that.

Granted, it seems at least supporting membership money has been going to improve a website, even if not this website. :p

Or a bourbon biscuit, theyre good for a dunking

Mmmmmm… :)

More of a Peek Freans Revolutionary Assortment type myself

( thank you Alexi Sayle link )