"Game of thrones in 15mm?" Topic

what minis would you guys use to make game of thrones armies in 15mm ? I was thinking normans for starks and viking for greyjoy. but wanted to get some feedback.

Yeah, I thinks that would be about right, you could also use Romano – Brits or Saxons, I recommend Splintered light
link
you can find the character figs in their dungeon crawl packs.

Not sure, but the general feeling I got from the series is that Westeros resembles low medieval England, at the time of the War of the Roses (York and Lancasters sounding familiar?)
Greyjoys, being sea raiders, are certainly reminiscing of classic Vikings, but to keep in line with military technology you might choose to mix them with Normans to represent the elite of the Iron Islands (Irish Normans from Baueda look especially fit to me).

As you go south, you might also take low medieval French, German and Italians to represent other kingdoms, with again Vikings/early Germans for the tribes of the mountains of the Moon. Wildlings, on the other hand, would definitely be early Vikings or early Germans.

These are my 2 cents, anyway :)

I used the Innuits from Mick Yarrow miniatures for wildlings for 15mm skirmish GoT … worked for me!

I used Normans for Baratheons . Starks Saxons . Lannisters early armoured Medieval types . Macedonians for Unsullied . Arabs for the Golden Company ( with Elephants ) . Celts and Picts for Wildlings … still a WIP …

Quote…[dwight shrute: I used Normans for Baratheons . Starks Saxons . Lannisters early armoured Medieval types . Macedonians for Unsullied . Arabs for the Golden Company ( with Elephants ) . Celts and Picts for Wildlings … still a WIP …]

I was pretty sad that all those Mercenary groups (especially Dario) in the TV series were not more Mediterranean/Arabic.

I guess filming in Northern Ireland has its casing limitations.

I'd go medieval for the Starks, you could mix them in with Normans and it would give you some gambesons/kettle,salet helms etc to go along with the maille,nasal. Create a nice mix.

Naturally you can go with whatever you want but the books have descriptions of knights in full plate and archers that seem to be close at least to longbowmen. I assume that the Dothraki are essentially Mongols. I think that the best way to put it is the way an analysis I once read of "The Once And Future King" put it, that the entire Middle Ages are present in the period described.

If you look at Darksword's officially authorized GoT line you'll see some like the Night's Watch in chain but also knights like Jaime Lannister in full plate. One of the things that I would say is that infantry doesn't seem to count for much which runs counter to is being directly based on WoTR or HYW armies, although part of that may simply be Martin's own choice. I don't know how much he knows or whether he picked a historical period. So just because infantry was becoming dominant in the late Middle Ages we maybe shouldn't read too much from that into GoT.

I will say that I bought the Darksword Jon Snow and Queen Cersei figures. I painted Snow as Prince Valiant (I was a big fan when I was a kid, my Dad read it to me before I could read) and cut off the scabbard in his left hand and gave him a round Prince Valiant shield. I painted Queen Cersei as Aleta, so I guess when all is said and done I would suggest go with what you like.

although part of that may simply be Martin's own choice,

He's an author of fantasy, with degrees in Journalism. Jokes about The Journalist's Guide to Firearms Identification aside, they just need to weave an interesting story.

But in all fairness,

that the entire Middle Ages are present in the period described

is true for most of the Middle ages as well. The London Tower armory still had mail and brigandines sitting around ready for use in the 1610's.

I know that armor was often handed down for generations, like swords it was expensive to replace and if useable often would be by warriors who were often broke. I've read accounts of some at Agincourt wearing chainmail. But the analysis of "Once and Future King" was talking more about the societies in general than about military equipment. We tend to think of Medieval Society as static when it was anything but. It was also far from uniform when looking at this region vs. that. That's also what I think Martin plays with in GoT, he has the Dothraki at the same time as a kingdom loosely based on the Vikings. It makes it easy and hard to wargame. A Lannister Army will look I guess fairly similar to the French Army at Agincourt while the Night's Watch would probably resemble William the Conquerors' army. On the sea he has Galleys, Cogs and Longships, Greek Fire and boarding.

The beauty in gaming it I guess is that you really can't go wrong. While I think the Dothraki most closely resemble the Mongols I'm not going to have an argument with someone who thinks they're closer to the Huns, maybe even the Turks. Maybe the Starks are more like Normans but they also could be represented by First or Third Crusaders. Or you can put them in full plate, who knows? As long as everyone in your group agrees, just have fun with it.

But yes, I agree, you could run into a mail clad man at arms probably throughout the period. Its like today, newer stuff is cool but expensive, being on the cutting edge requires a sizeable income. And knights and minor nobility weren't known for their financial skills.

One must be wary of being too Euro-centric in AGoT. I see Dothraki as closer to Bedouin raiders, or Saracens. Greyjoy seem very close to early Viking (800 AD, before they settled down in towns too much) however, unlike Greyjoy, the Vikings very definitely did sow. Greyjoy also have elements of late Muslim slave-raiders up and down the coast of Italy.

Much of AGoT seems to have been inspired by the Crusades as well – the attack on Constantinople by Crusader turncoats is very AGoT.

Thanks for the feedback it was good info and I appreciate all the feedback and I very much look forward to doing some game of thrones gaming.

I need to reread GoT, but much like LotR I think almost any historical or fantasy figures you like could be used.

Don't be afraid to pillage fantasy ranges either. Various barbarians, frost knights, etc may yield some useful figures.

I think the point is well taken that "the whole Middle Ages period is in there." The same is true of the Conan stories. Fur-bikinied Barbarians and knights in shining plate happily exist in the same world.

What rules are you thinking of using and have you made any specific GoT adaptations?

I will probably use the hail caesar rule set either that or field of glory then make some special house rules for each faction and see how that works I'm hoping to put out a pdf version to share for any like minded people out there that would like to try it out. And what manufacturer makes frost knights i would like to check those out.

You'll find that Dux Bellorum will work quite well also, using the Hundred Years' War variant posted online.

Having spoken with the other about this very subject and discussed what art work he thinks captures Westeros and what doesn't, here are a few thougths:

1) Ignore the HBO serias
2) Check out the authorized DarkSword line of 35mm miniatures, they are reviewed and approved by the author.

Specifically the North is generally early HYW (Normans Saxons are much too early). Lots of mail/gambesons but nobles in plate (Rob Stark is specifially described as having a visored helm).

As you move south armor tech moves to latter periods the river lands are late HYW while the south has full metal barded horses etc so War of the Roses stuff would work.

NO fur lined bikini barbarian maids – Martin would barf in his beard at the suggestion.

Infantry is important (see Martin's despciption of the battle of the Greenfork). Sheild wall, pike blocks the value of longbows (and crossbows) are specifically discussed.

If your going to use 15mm try to find a good medieval line (I'm still looking for one). In 25mm the platstic Perry's work great for the south and the Fireforge Teutonic ranges are great for the north (the Perry's are about to come out with plastic "Agincourt" era stuff – perfect for Tully's etc.)

We use DBA3.0 with some HOTT elements for The Game of Ice and Fire" – I just ran a demo at Historicon.

TomT

I would actually avoid DBA for this one, but to each his own I guess – YMMV. Dux Bellorum is conceptually and in actual gameplay results, closer to the descriptions of the battles in the books. Having played about 50-odd games of DBA/HotT and about 20 odd of Dux Bell, both for AGoT, I'd take Dux Bell.

I get that a great many people like HotT as a GAME, but as a simulation of the "historical" (or canonical) tactics and results, I'd say it is a bit too "geometrical" and linear, and too impersonal (no leadership markers, for instance) to reflect the kind of chaotic, swirling events in the books.

Also, there are elite units in the books, like Gregor Clegane's knights, which I don't see well-represented in HotT. But as I said, I know many will disagree with my assessment, and that's a good thing, right?

I thought Game of Thrones was the English Civil War with the serial numbers filed off?

I don't recall Cleganes knights being particularly elite. Do we have description of them in battle outside of the trident?

I'm using the Perry and Fireforge plastics as follows – Teutonic infantry for the North, WotR infantry as-is for the Riverlands, WotR infantry with melee weapons and shields as well as bows for the Westerlands (less developed but very defensive/noble), 'Mercenaries' for the Tyrells, the Lannisters will be the HYW kit (the armour is a minor step backwards, but I think it suits 'old money') and the Vale will use the Foot Knights (so much nobity & etc.)

As far as rules go I wasn't entirely satisfied with the options, so I've been homebrewing a set that focuses on streamlined c&c, formations becoming increasingly disordered and brutally decisive combat.

Has anyone considered Armies Of Arcana or War and Conquest? I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on those two…

Thomas Thomas has done much work in this vein and is worth listening to.

For this scale you might consider Warmaster Medieval with army list mods over at this site:

link

I thought Game of Thrones was the English Civil War with the serial numbers filed off?

Do you mean War of the Roses? No pike and musket in Westeros…. ;)

-Will

Anyway, if you're looking at arms/armor and trying to be 'accurate', you HAVE to read this note by Martin:
link

Here Martin clarifies a lot what sort of armor he 'intended' be visualized, and there's three important take aways:
1. The overall armor is closer to later HYW than WOTR era, though there's room for WOTR-era stuff as you head into the Reach.
2. Northerners tend more towards chain than plate, wildlings are even more primitive.
3. Overall the armor is all over the map, and deliberately so.

Based on this, here's my take based on the information I've gathered, starting with the Starks and heading on south:
1. House Stark and the North lean towards the Viking/Saxon/Norman motif, though 'high' medieval (later Crusades, Northern Crusades) stuff also works. I see the North as actually consisting of at least 5 major sub-cultures:
a) Winterfell, the Wolfswood and Barrowlands, the 'core' of the North are mostly Saxon/Norman/Crusades in style.
b) Far-northern houses (Karstark, Umber) tends towards the earlier part of the same era (half-helms, etc)
c) White Harbor and nearby houses have better contact with the south through trade, and a knightly tradition, so more HYW-era armor and style.
d) The Northern Mountain Clans, lightly equipped and dark ages/early medieval in style.
e) The Neck, Greywater Watch, we don't really see these guys in actions so it's hard to say.

2. House Greyjoy and the Iron Islands- Viking is the obvious choice, but their equipment is probably actually more of a mix with later eras.

3. House Tully and the Riverlands – 'high' medieval to HYW

4. House Arryn and the Eyrie- Ditto!

5. House Lannister and the Westerlands- HYW, though House Lannister itself might trends more towards WOTR as it can afford the best gear.

6. House Baratheon and the Stormlands- HYW

7. House Tyrell and the Reach – Late HYW, maybe some WOTR (again Tyrell itself can probably afford nicer arms and armor).

8. House Martell and Dorne- They have a bit more of a 'middle eastern' flair, so a mix of Arabs, Turks, and then more Western influences. Again, at least three ethnic groups here.

-Will

Hi Wminsing

Very good observations, I would agree with all your points, also

"8. House Martell and Dorne- They have a bit more of a 'middle eastern' flair, so a mix of Arabs, Turks, and then more Western influences. Again, at least three ethnic groups here."

You could probably use El Cid Medieval Spanish.

Hi Wminsing

Very good observations, I would agree with all your points, also

"8. House Martell and Dorne- They have a bit more of a 'middle eastern' flair, so a mix of Arabs, Turks, and then more Western influences. Again, at least three ethnic groups here."

You could probably use El Cid Medieval Spanish.

Excellent point! The 'Stoney' Dornishmen (the guys who live in the mountains and in/near the Dornish Marches) I'd definitely peg as being Medieval Spanish in style. The 'Sandy' Dornishmen of the interior are closer to Medieval Arabs and Turks, the 'Salty' Dornishmen on the east coast I'm not really sure.

-Will

I've seen FFG artwork that has Dornish in pretty regular armour. Not sure I'd want to look into Arabs/Turks to accurately represent them, although I'm not sure what options really exist for kinda Moorish Spain kinda Welsh people who favour spears.

Capt Flash wrote

Has anyone considered Armies Of Arcana or War and Conquest? I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on those two

--> I found somewhere on line a whole list of excellent ideas that could be used in tandem with War & Conquest.. Never got round to making the adjustments as I have been too busy watching the TV series and then I started to reread the books..!!

But its a topic I could happily/easily discuss. I will dig out the file over the weekend and see whats there as I would like to do a War & Conquest project in 15 or 10mm (to make a change from 28s!, so this has potential

kind regards

Rob
scarabminiatures.com
warandconquest.co.uk

15mm please.

Gunner:

We are using 28mm examples in our suggestions as way of illustration. In 28mm waves of boxed plastics sets are appearing that nearly perfectly produce the world of Ice and Fire so not suprisingly lots of people are doing this project in 28mm. But someone can still study the examples of the 28mm figures and then look through 15mm offerings to find similar figures (I do the same with the Dark Sword line – brillant figures but too large to use in 28mm).

The suggestions offered with the 28mm examples are excellent and much better than using Dark Age stuff.

I would be cautious about using anything prior to 1200 (even Greyjoy leaders use plate armor and certainly all Stark family memebers do – I think Dilletente Gamer suggested using HYW Scots as their leaders have plate armor but rank and file a bit less). In the Dunk and Egg stories set a 100 years before The Game of Thrones, plate armor is already common.

As to 15mm Corvus Belli (Sp?) did a line of 15mm HYW that might serve as basis for several armies (not sure they are still in business but some company must make 15mm HYW).

Character conversions are fairly easy with 28mm plastics as you can swap heads/arms/bodies etc. Dark Sword has many excellent examples to work from. In 15mm unless you have a very sharp saw and good tweezers conversions are tricky – again best to review catalogs of 15mm and come as close as you can. But at least you have some idea of what to look for.

TomT

whilst I agree that there are many analogies to the WOTR in Game of thrones, I would hesitate in using WOTR era miniatures, as these would appear to be too advanced in the main, shields are still prominently used in GOT whilst not used at all in the WOTR (or rarely at best), id stick to earlier medieval types, with the northern troops being even earlier types to represent their lack of sophisticated armour and that they have very few knights

Thanks for the suggestions on 15mm figs. The HYW ones were exactly what I was looking for. I'm currently reading the short novel "The Princess and the Queen," the history of the Targaryen civil war known as the Dance of the Dragons as written by Archmaester Gyldayn (aka George Marin). This is set 170 years before the War of the Five Kings, and there are many descriptions of plate armor being used. I just finished rereading a Dance With Dragons, and the Dornishmen, at least the wealthiest, are also described as wearing plate and mail

I'm reading book four for the first time, and Martin notes that the new military religious order uses kite shields "of a sort that had not been used in Westeros for several centuries." To me, that would rule out converted Norman's for most armies.

Don't underestimate the influence of the battles for Northern Scotland, including the treachery of the Stewarts toward the MacDonalds at the parley of Inverness – Red Wedding?) on Martin's novels.

Plate armor on horses is mentioned several times as well as ornate full plate armor more typical of the WOR then HYW.

Another useful source is the upcoming Ice and Fire book due out in October. Lots of art (more or less approved by the author – he specifially mentions that it will NOT follow the mini-serias style). One bit already appears on his Martin's website and shows a fully plate armored knight (circa 1420) charging a line of spear. May depict the Mountain v. northern spear (who appear to be Braveheart fantasy style). It may, however, depict Wildlings v. Stannis.

(Dark Age figures very good for wildlings).

Shields are mentioned but often in relation to northern spearmen. French pavisers from various HYW lines work well.

TomT

But plate armour is FAR from ubiquitous, as most (the VAST majority) of Westerosi are not members of the aristocratic elite, and hence they rely on the hand-me-downs from grandpa, or what they can scrounge off defeated foes.

It's the reason why guys who CAN afford plate (the very, very few) are the exception, and can smash through the riff-raff so easily…

You want one or two "Hero" elements in plate. The rest of your army should look more like a middle Crusades force.

Even the poor landless "hedge knights" are described as being in plate and mail.

link

Get the short story version first, if you can. The Dunk and Egg stories are a great read.

Hedge knights are wealthy enough to afford their own horses. Many of the Outriders and Cavalry were not. Recall hedge knights were often of the nobility who had fallen afoul or clan strife, or who were otherwise now unemployed, or were squires "promoted" into positions but then got laid off.

Not your overwhelming numbers.

Martin himself describes the style as generally HYW, with some hand-me-downs. Look at the Darksword line if you want canon depictions.

Personally I see the armour a little differently. As do you, clearly. In those events I think the true hair splitting can be left behind so that whatever models you prefer can be chosen.

@Scarab Miniatures- hey Rob, that would be great. I'll take a look online myself later and see if I can dig them up too.
-Edgar

Hi

Has anyone got any pictures or lists of GoF nations aligned with real world ones?

I'm looking at 15mm or may be Kallistra 10/12mm

Thanks

Any covered this as mass battle on their blogs? Links appreciated.
-Frostie

All westerosi should be a mix of HYW and WoTRs era figs. Though for dorne you can throw in Italians and Spaniards.

Where you have more freedom and room are with or non Westerosi.
Sullied …. Persian immortals?
Dothraki…. Mongols, Turks, Boyars, Magyars?
Wildings…. Saxons, Vikings, fantasy barbarians, Dunlendings…
Hill Tribes…. Ancient celts and Germans? Dacians? Native Americans?

Whatever you choose to get from Splintered Light now is the time to order it, while their sale is still on!

It ends TONIGHT!

TMP link

Dan