"Giving Us a Female Thor and Black Captain America ..." Topic

…Isn't Enough.

"Starting in November, it seems we'll have a new Captain America to go along with the new Thor in Marvel's comic book line-up. As announced on last night's episode of The Colbert Report, Sam Wilson—better known to many as the Falcon from this spring's movie Captain America: The Winter Soldier—will be taking up the shield and replacing Steve Rogers in the current comic storyline.

The reveal of an African-American Captain America following on the heels of a female Thor is hardly a coincidence. Speaking to Time.com earlier this week, Marvel editor-in-chief Axel Alonso said that the publisher "perceived there to be a real thirst for characters that reflect what we see in the mirror [and] our goal is to make our characters reflect the outside world."

On the surface, this is good news. Marvel, like its chief competitor DC Entertainment, has an obvious diversity problem—one born of the comic book industry's reluctance to enrage a conservative fanbase or disrupt its own nostalgia-based appeal. Any attempt at broadening its cast of characters is is a welcome one. Just three years ago, Marvel had no comics with female leads; as of October, it will have eight, including the new Thor series. (The All-New Captain America series will be one of seven Marvel books with a non-white lead; eight, if you count Rocket Raccoon.).."
Full article here
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Amicalement
Armand

I worry about The Falcon becoming Cap A – mainly because he hasn't access to Super Soldier Serum.

It's a bit like Supe's handing me his cape and asking me to fly, run faster than a speeding bullet etc etc.

It's not just the costume that makes the superhero.

I always wonder why they do not just invent new characters and promote them rather than change the gender or race of the existing ones.

Actually I know why, its easier to use a name that is famous already but could there be other reasons too not to create new characters?

GBS

Welcome to PC and Disney (Marvel's owner.)

Yup take something good and traditional and ruin it, look out Wonder Woman your next with Wonder Transvestite

"I always wonder why they do not just invent new characters and promote them rather than change the gender or race of the existing ones."

Laziness? Incompetence?

Aren't they admitting that they can't write a decent Falcon comic, a character who has been around since 1969!

This seems especially ridiculous when you consider that Sam Wilson has been established as the Falcon on film. Would it be too much to ask to develop a new Falcon comic in parallel with a Falcon film?

Loved the comics, loved the films.
Not fussed by the changes………

I hear Marvel will be funding a new Alamo movie, with Whoopi Goldberg as Davy Crockett.

D.C. and Marvel only exist to make movies out of their properties. Their comic books have been lacking for years!

With the exception of the lack of super soldier serum (admittedly a pretty big issue!) I have no problem with Falcon taking over the Cap role; Sam Wilson has been a partner and good friend to Cap for decades now. I would rather this than some new character they invented to fill the role.

Sorry, but what is changing the race/gender going to bring to the character.

Nothing.

What is the change going to take away from the character?

> What is the change going to take away from the character?

That is actually a good question. If the answer is "nothing" then the only reason to do the change was PCism gone amok. If the answer is the character is different then it is no longer character X (I actually lost track of which character change we are talking about but this question and answer applies to any/all such changes)

Redwing!

Though you could put a little domino mask on him and call him Bucky.

In a world where people freaked out when James Bond became a blond or Batman switched from Adam West to Michael Keaton, why does it come as a shock that people don't like these changes?

Growing up, I remember full She-Hulk, Spider Woman and Wonder Woman comics (and I actually <gasp> read them!). I loved reading Men of War for The Grave Digger, a black character who was the hero of the story- a black man assigned to a grave digging battalion who is assigned dirty commando jobs that no one else can or is willing to do. (The other story I loved was the Enemy Ace.)

I loved War Machine (and even before that when Rhodey took over the Iron Man suit when Tony Stark was paralyzed by alcoholism. Even then, he didn't become Iron Man, he was merely playing the part while his friend got his life together. Then he came back as War Machine, a strong character in his own right (and one with his own comic for a time).

I read Wonder Woman and thought she was an awesome hero. So much so that I went to my library and checked out a massive hardbound compendium of the original comics from the 1940s and read it cover to cover more than once.

I loved both Fantastic Four and X-Men, as well as Avengers, and Defenders. All of these groups were diverse going back into the 1960s and dealt with the issues of women and race in our modern world. X-Men especially has been incredibly diverse since that late 1970s by introducing new characters. Hell, I'd argue that introducing these new characters led to the golden age of the X-Men in the early 1980s. They didn't just make one of the existing heroes a new race, sex or orientation.

This all happened in the late 1970s and early 1980s. When did our society become so ham fisted at race and sex issues? To me, just changing a well established hero to be a woman or another race (or sexual preference) states that the editors don't think they can come up with a compelling new hero that will capture the imagination of the audience.

I would refute this way of thinking with my above examples, and I think it states that they think you are too racist or sexist or stupid to like a hero that isn't a white male. I also refute that the comics world has been a bastion of white maleness. As I stated above, non standard heroes have been around since I was a kid reading lots of comics (and that was more than 30 years ago).

I honestly have no problem with Sam Wilson taking the mantle of Cap, but I do have to ask why we can't accept his previous role as Falcon? Falcon had his own comic for a while and was a major member of the Avengers for a number of years. By accepting the mantle of Cap, it seems to be a cop out and giving up on a well established and solid character.

This also smacks of paternalism- "We will force you to accept Thor as a woman/ Sam Wilson as Cap because we deem that you required this lesson." Basically it smacks of stunts to make money and fans don't like disingenuous changes.

Ugh. Thank God these clowns weren't around in the 1970s, or I wouldn't have gotten to enjoy Black Panther, Storm, She Hulk, Rogue, Red Ronin (a Japanese boy in a giant robot), Blade, Luke Cage, Cyborg, Jocasta, Scarlett Witch or any of a myriad of characters I came to know and love because of their own unique stories.

Ironically, I prefer the black Green Lantern- John Stewart- but that whole story line established long ago that the Green Lantern wasn't a permanent role- that the lantern can and does change.

For those interested here is a list of black superheroes-

link

and Female Superheroines-

link

@Bob Runnicles – I agree, the Cap A & the Falcon tagteam comic from the 70's was a great read. If anyone is going to take up the shield then why not The Falcon? But he's going to need that super soldier serum otherwise he's just a poor man's Batman.

There is the flip side – who's going to be The Falcon ? The suggestion is that this change makes the superhero genre more diverse – but it doesn't, the number of African-American superheroes stays static.

Sure, this is a promotion – but somehow "superhero" and "career path" are terms that don't go together well for me. Does Green Arrow hope to become Aquaman one day ? As a stepping stone to being Wonder Woman ? And, who knows, with the right support from HR and some of the other top people at Corporate HQ maybe he could be Superman for a couple of years before retiring.

Surely it doesn't work like that ?

The US is a multi-ethnic, dual-gendered society.

Meh… I want a white Spawn. A real honky.

I wonder what would happen if they made Black Panther a white guy? Maybe hawkeye can take over for a while. :)

Winston Smith…dude! (smile).

Amicalement
Armand

I always wonder why they do not just invent new characters and promote them rather than change the gender or race of the existing ones.

Because that does not push the agendas that they want to push.

That's Why

Sorry, but what is changing the race/gender going to bring to the character.

Nothing

But it does push their agendas.

dual-gendered

Actually more like Tri or Quad gendered.

Comics did a lot of social commentary right up until the 80's, where the climate changed and with falling sales, editors were increasingly itchy about publishing something that might cause a scandal.

We had minority heroes, gay heroes, interracial and gay marriages, just without any of the in your face self-congratulatory fanfare they bombard us with today.

The Death of Superman was the start of the regular media blitz and these days it's a miracle that your favourite character lasts more than a year or two without some major editorial changes, a new team and a few hefty retcons.

It used to be that you could pick up any issue of Wonder Woman or a Spider-Man knowing pretty much what to expect from the title character, there might be some temporary changes, they might be depowered for a while or going through changes, but the character more or less returned to the familiar status-quo. These days when you pick up any random issue you best google and check Wikipedia to make sure you are up to speed on the status of your hero because they might not be the same character you remember fondly.

"who's going to be the Falcon?"

Steve Rodgers probably

I gave up on comics long ago…I'd be only interested picking up older ones now

The idea that they have any agenda other than drumming up business for a stagnant genre is pretty silly. As for creating new characters instead; New names and costumes don't sell, the superhero business is all about brand loyalty these days.

Messing with iconic figures doesn't breath new life into story lines. TGerritsen's lists of black and female superheroes/heroines offers proof that there are plenty of new stories that could be advanced with fresh, new input by talented writers, let alone, developing new ones. The box office for the Thor movies, for example, wouldn't have allowed the second movie to be made. It would take two to three generations of readers to accept a female Thor in order to have a successful movie.

Why? Because lazy editors think that shock value actually has real value. And, briefly, it does. It gets a few people to buy the shock-value comic and maybe even a few follow-up issues for a while. And then they lose interest and go back to playing Kim Kardashian's latest app and the value of the shock value plummets to nil. So the lazy editors reset everything and then find a new shock value change— "Wolverine's healing powers turn him into a hermaphrodite midget!"— and do it again. And again. And again. Ad infinitum, ad nauseaum.

I stopped reading comics years ago, because the stories got stupid. I haven't seen any sign that the situation has changed.

The only funny book I used to read was Thor, and that was back in the 70s.
I guess "he" got along fine without me.
I also guess he does not need my permission either.

What would happen if Jean Grey or Storm became dudes?

I stopped collecting about 15 years ago when the art started to look like water color paintings or something Mike Judge would draw. I still buy something every now and then when something grabs my eye like when John Byrne put out a Star Trek comic. Changes to our hero's have happened millions of times and many have died and been resurrected. That's no big deal, what drives me nuts is when it gets put out there like it's permanent and some benefit to a minority. Then a few months later they change the hero back to the original. Does anyone really believe that Sam Wilson will be the permanent Capt. America? Does anyone really believe that Thor will stay a woman? He was a frog at one time! Wolverine lost all his adamantium and then got it back, blah, blah, blah. You know what would make a good comic? Cap says to Sam, hey buddy, take off the suit. I'm Captain America even without my strength. You're the Falcon. The world needs the Falcon. Let me as Captain America retire. Comic writers don't have the ability to write good stories anymore, they can only sit around and try to figure out ways to shock us. If there wasn't a boom in comic book movies I think that comics would have pretty much faded away. Look at super hero cartoons right now on TV, they can't keep any going. The two incarnations of the Avengers cartoon have flopped and that's during the massive popularity of the movies. Has anyone looked at the various titles the Marvel puts out? It's a confusing mess, there's pretty much 4 books for each hero or team in various incarnations. How do you decide which to get? It's like Archie dying, that was in one of the titles. He is still alive in the other titles. Basically all of this hubbub is really nothing to see, if you don't like it, don't buy it. If you think that buying these will be collectable down the road, keep dreaming. People thought that the death of Superman would be a big collectible item, the market is so flooded with the issue it's worth less than the cover price.

Has anyone looked at the various titles the Marvel puts out?

I waited years for a Green Goblin comic. When Marvel finally issued one, it was a hot mess.

Nothing about it bothers me… in fact it kind of interests me since it calls back to the original Thor comics where anyone who can pick up the hammer will become Thor. So why not a woman? a black guy? a kid named Juan?

What possible reason to object to the character not being a white male except for the same old nonsense?

"What possible reason to object to the character not being a white male…"
When the character is a white male.

Think of all the dog owners who have a male dog that have to explain why they gave a female name to their male dog! lol!

So howabout Angelina Jollie becoming Nicola Fury, because she can rock an eyepatch (just watch Sky Captain) and kick ass (Salt) speaking of Nick Fury I remember when he was a white dude.

Nick Fury is still white, is retired. His son is black and is now in charge of SHIELD, according to the comics.

When the character is a white male.

WAS a white male… LOTS of superheroes change in the identity of who is behind the mask. Thor's concept has it built in from the beginning, with whoever picks up the hammer takes on that the aspect of Thor.

The only thing about it that bugs me at all is the silly 'boob armor' breastplate.

What if they made Spiderman gay? Would they change is secret identity name "Peter Parker"

I wonder what would happen if they made Black Panther a white guy? Maybe hawkeye can take over for a while. :)

Here's my take on The Black Panther movie…

Mattie Froman (blonde hair, blue eyes, white girl) was just 8 years old when the plane she was flying in with her father crashed in Wakanda. T'Challa found the girl while out on patrol and took her home, where he nursed her back to health. Not having children of his own and believing that he needed to learn compassion, he decided to adopt her and raiser her as his own, in the only way he knew how: As his son. Mattie quickly mastered hunting, fishing, tracking and even learned Wakandan martial arts. As the years went by, not only did she learn what it meant to be Wakandan, she learned what it meant to be Wakandan royalty, managing court while her adopted father traveled internationally to represent Wakandan interests.

Ever curious, she secretly began following her adopted father on his patrols. It was during one such adventure that she saw T'Challa headed into an ambush. Her last-minute warning afforded him just enough time to dodge the certainly-fatal attack, though he was still grievously wounded. Mattie was able to reach him and, after borrowing his fighting knives, force the attackers to withdraw.

T'Challa's long convalescence meant that he could no longer fulfill the role of protector for their people. Realizing the answer was at hand, he named Mattie as his successor. Mattie was apprehensive, at first, but soon realized that not only was this what her adopted had trained her for, but this was who she was, and she willingly took up the mantle. She is not the White Panther. She is not the Black Panthress. She IS the Black Panther.

As word spread, stories of the old plane crash emerged. Speculation of Mattie's biological parentage surfaced, and her true identity was soon confirmed. As heiress to her legendary father's sausage empire, she realized that she needed to head back to Chicago and claim her rightful inheritance.

Yadda yadda, "loving" step-mother had secretly arranged for the original plane crash, though we don't find that out for a good long time. Difficulties in re-joining society after having been declared dead for the past 15 years, difficulties in taking control of her father's company, difficulties in balancing her obligations as Black Panther with her new obligations as the Sausage Queen of Chicago, difficulties in dealing with Tony Stark hitting on her as she works with the rest of the Avengers, etc.

Since we're changing ethnicity, and even gender, of long-established characters, it only seems fair. And remember, if you have a problem with this, it's because you're a misogynist racist.

Nothing about it bothers me… in fact it kind of interests me since it calls back to the original Thor comics where anyone who can pick up the hammer will become Thor. So why not a woman? a black guy? a kid named Juan?

What possible reason to object to the character not being a white male except for the same old nonsense?

There is a biological entity named Thor, and he is the son of Odin. Because he is worthy, he is able to wield Mjolnir and assume the mantle of Thunder God.

When the biological entity known as Thor was changed into a frog, and then a woman, it was via magic. The entity was still Thor.

This new woman Thor is a hot mess. It is a new biological entity, and of no relation to Odin.

I have zero problem with a woman, minority, or an alien (though I was not a fan of Beta Ray Bill) being worthy, wielding Mjolnir, and assuming the mantle of Thunder God/ess. Just give the new character a new name.

Thor is a name, not a title.