"Heaviest "light tank"?" Topic

What is the heaviest vehicle you'd still consider a light tank, in WW2?

The Matilda II was used as a light tank by the Russians – doubt you'll top that offhand.

Gotta be the Chaffee. A 75mm gun, and decent enough armor. It would have been an excellent medium tank if it had been available sooner.

M24 Chafee

Weren't Soviet tanks classified based on the main gun?

Well, if the Panther is a medium, I suppose Panzers 3 and 4 would have to be cosidered lights.

Well, if the Panther is a medium, I suppose Panzers 3 and 4 would have to be cosidered lights.

Early in the war, Panzer IIIs were held in a Panzer battalion's "light" companies, so there's that. But the Pz IVs were the "heavy" company, so go figure.

Germans "classified" their tank categories by cannon caliber that is why panther was considered "medium"

Gotta agree with Ivan & Phlox--M24 Chaffee

The heaviest I can find designed as a light tank is the Walker Bulldog, 23.5 tons.

All the best,

John.

Was the Walker Bulldog in service during WWII? I thought it was post -war.

Early in the war, Panzer IIIs were held in a Panzer battalion's "light" companies, so there's that. But the Pz IVs were the "heavy" company, so go figure.

Pz-IIIs are main battle tanks…so "medium". Pz-IVs were initially infantry support tanks and later used as main battle tanks. So also "medium".

Was the Walker Bulldog in service during WWII? I thought it was post -war.

I don't believe so. Neither does wiki. link

John

There was the truly mental Pz I Ausf F, weighing in at 21 tons:

Yes, the Panzer IIIs and IVs were considered MBTs. And the M41 was not around during WWII … It was introduced in 1953 and had very limited use in the Korean War. However, it was widely used by the ARVN in Vietnam from '65 on … Many were also exported to other countries and upgraded as time went on. Some may still be in use …

Might a suitable definition be whether it's intended to engage enemy tanks or not?

What about the T-34 with the long 57mm?

link

I think the heaviest 'light tank' title goes to that PzI/F, 21 tons and armed with 2x MGs.

Most dangerous light tank has got to be the Chaffee, 75mm gun and 20 tons.

Petrov is correct.

Panzer IIIs with 37 or 50mm were classified as light, with 75mm as medium.

Druzhina
Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers

Well not really a tank but classified as a tank destroyer, I would suggest the Hellcat, 76 mm gun, 17.7 metric tons (39,000 lb)speed up to 92 km/h (57 mph)

Petrov is correct.

Panzer IIIs with 37 or 50mm were classified as light, with 75mm as medium.

Druzhina

True, but I also look at employment in battle. In 1940, most MBTs/AFVs, were packing 20mm [Pz.II] to 37mm [38T] or 40mm[many UK BTs]. The few AFVs that were packing larger, like 75mm [Pz.IV], were generally few … Most those of early engagements, '39-'41 were "won" by 37-40mm …

@Weasel-the 30 ton Sherman wasn't meant to engage tanks, that's what Tank Destroyers are for.

Yes, the Panzer IIIs and IVs were considered MBTs.

Hi Legion,

They were actually considered mediums. There were actually no MBTs in WWII as the main battle tank concept was a post war concept.

Guf

Yes, I think there is some confusion here. Germans tanks weren't classified by either weight or by gun calibre but by tactical employment, and the label attached to tanks didn't apply to their parent formations.

So Panzer IIIs were medium tanks (strictly, 'platoon commanders vehicles' as originally designed), but assigned to Light Panzer Cos, whereas the Panzer IVs (also medium) tanks went to Medium Panzer Cos. Actual light tanks (Pz II and Pz I) appeared in both, early in the war anyway. It got more confusing in 1943 when 'light' tank companies essential ly meant Pz III and 'medium' meant Pz IV, apart from Panthers of course…

Panthers, which in Allied armies would have been a heavy tank (weight), Soviet armies a medium tank (based on gun calibre), went into medium tank companies as they were employed as medium tanks.

The Tiger (which only weighed 9 tons more than a Panther) went into heavy tank companies, not because it was 'heavy' but because the tactical employment of heavy/breakthrough tanks was different.

The Soviet predeliction for classifying tanks by gun calibre didn't apparently apply to KV-1s or Lend Lease Churchills, which both ended up in Heavy Tank Regiments, despite having the same or lighter armament than their T34/76 equipped pals in Tank Brigades.

So there isn't really a great deal of consistency in this.

As mentioned above, there weren't any MBTs in WW2 although both the Soviets and British had a quest for a 'universal tank'. Arguably they found it in the T34/85 or possibly T-44 and Centurian, but both persisted with heavy tanks (IS-III/T-10, Conqueror) well into the 1950s. Arguably the MBT only arrived when heavy tanks went away.

Nicely put Martin

The first British tank identified as an MBT is the Chieftain

I know there were not any "MBTs" per sa in WWII … But … But … I'm looking at employment … as Martin noted …

That's not my understanding of German tank development. Pz I's and II's were built primarily to provide training and experience in armored warfare. The Pz III was designed based on what the army learned using the smaller tanks. That's why it was available in such small numbers in 1939, development and production followed the the lighter tanks rather than coincident with it. German tank organization was "Regular tank" and "HE support tank", not light/medium/heavy (though they were called light or heavy). PzI's and II's were used in the early panzer divisions because that's what they had, they would be replaced with pz III's when the numbers were available (though that was an ever-increasing number). With the advent of the 75mm AT gun HE support tanks were no longer needed and the tank battalion became homogeneous.

Really, the German panzer effort had a sound theory but due to material constraints was a cobbled-together series of ahhoc measures in practice from 1939 straight through 1945.

Ah, perhaps I should have finished reading the question before posting an answer.

The Walker Bulldog certainly was post-WW2, and I reckon is the heaviest light tank ever.

I can't find anything in the light tank class from WW2 heavier than the Pz IF, but I doubt that the official designation of the thing contained the word "light" anywhere. The Chaffee, on the other hand, was officially designated as a light tank.

I don't know where people get the idea that the Russians designated their tanks by gun calibre. I happen to have to hand a copy of Обозрение Отечественной Бронетанковой Техники 1905-1995, and the division into "light", "medium" and "heavy" is pretty clearly by weight, not armament, until the T64A and T-72, which were designated as main (battle) tanks, heavies having been discontinued by then. There are some odd designations -- the lights include designations like "tankette", "small swimming tank" (smaller than "light swimming tank", it seems), "light infantry tank", "light infantry support tank", and the mediums include an experimental "small heavily armoured tank". Pre-WW2 both lights and mediums sometimes have the additional qualifier "wheeled/tracked", and post war there are "commander's tanks", but I can find no Russian tank classification that refers to the armament unless the main armament is a flamethrower or a guided missile.

All the best,

John.

As I noteed in my first post … the M41 came out in '53, very little use in Korea. But got a lot of action with the ARVN in Vietnam. Plus many were sold to other nations as well …