"Have I overreacted?" Topic

I'd like a second opinion on this please guys.

I recently subscribed to a certain site that will remain anonymous as I don't want to appear a cry baby.

I joined in a discussion about a new aspect of the game and mentioned in passing that I didn't really go in for the maths side of it, just playing and thinking about tactics. I did make it clear I was happy to politely discuss anything though. All hell broke loose, I got accused of being closed minded, not "respecting math"?!, bringing my late wife into it (I had respectfully mentioned her in passing to illustrate my point about stats) all sorts of nastiness ensued really.

"Blimey!" I thought, "I haven't said anything much yet and what APPEAR and I do stress the word APPEAR to be angry American 20 somethings (I'm a 48 year old Brit) are really getting on my case here, whatever I say seems to be wrong, I don't need this, I'll just leave."

One guy even left a "secret message" for me BTW…a tiny link in between the letters of one of the words in one of his postings. I never clicked on it. What's the point? Grow up!

OK, with me so far? I do not want my personal data on the company's servers, I do feel quite strongly about that because I have never in 33 years of wargaming encountered so much spite, bile and nastiness and I simply want nothing to do with these people, zero. So rather than just not post anymore I politely enquired in a separate thread about how I could get this done, where was the link to the moderators please?

All hell broke loose. Again! Page after page of abuse, which, after reacting inappropriately once (I am not perfect) I decided to ignore other than thanking those people who were kind enough to PM me with apologies for the behaviour and who had asked it to stop on the forum.

I didn't think any more of it until I casually checked back and saw some pretty nasty stuff aimed at me, like pack attack. Pages of it. I saw red. This game attracts younger people as well as older gamers, cyber bullying is a terrible problem amongst today's young people and whilst I am not bothered by sad lads typing away in their bedrooms (they wouldn't have the guts to say it face to face) if they do this to a young adult, a teenager or a vulnerable person who knows what the consequences could be? They only have to be unlucky once. Sadly many parents both here and in the States mourn lost children, it's in the news a lot these days and nobody knows what the final straw can be that pushes someone to do something irreversible.

So against my better judgement, having previously said I was outta there, I posted again and told them so, gave them both barrels about cyber bullying, what the consequences could be and how they sickened me with their attitude. There's probably umpteen pages more abuse there now, I don't care. I'd rather be abused (I'll never see it, I've deleted the whole site from my PC) rather than some 16 year old be cyber bullied because he got on the wrong side of them and their God which appears to be stats and "meta" which we don't have amongst Macedonian pikes and Yorkist longbowmen.

Have I over reacted here? Be honest. Sorry I don't want to divulge the site, it's a company's forum and I don't want to bad mouth them or any individuals and it's true that because of that you only have my side of the story but the behaviour I have come across there has really shocked me. I'd be ashamed if any forum I belonged to behaved like that but if you think I've made a complete idiot of myself and have overreacted wildly please say. I'd just like a second opinion really.

Alan, we played one game of FOG at Expo a few years back and you came across as quite rational then, I see no reason that you've lost it here now.

There is never a call for abuse. If the company are of any decent repute I imagine they would be interested to hear how their forum is being abused. Report them if it's bugging otherwise walk away, either way head held high.

If it is as you say, then I certainly wouldn´t waste my time there anymore. Thin skinned forum members and a lack of moderating are not a good combination. I wouldn´t have even gone back for your final post, as you know what you would get for your trouble. Just ´em and enjoy your hobby in a more civilized way.
That is what I really like about this site, it is expected that members will behave themselves like ladies and gentlemen, and so we miss a lot of the rif-raf.

Without seeing the thread I could not give you a fair opinion.
If you want to chat via e-mail feel free.

Michael.

mail@angelbarracks.co.uk

Sounds grim, AlanYork … but to be honest it is hard to judge without seeing the whole picture. Certainly, there is nothing wrong with liking some aspects of a game but not all – and saying so. I do that all the time and frequently get negative feedback for it (but nothing like it sounds like you have experienced).

Pack Attacks do seem to happen, at times, and you are right to complain. Half a dozen determined contributors can seem like an army of thousands on a forum sometimes – and the people joining the pack know it.

But it would be unfair to comment beyond that …

Phil

That forum is simply not for you. Validation or rejection by a pack of strangers you only know by what some selective lines of text tell you
about them is meaningless. Porn and YouTube videos about how to fix your appliances are the main uses of the Internet.

People say things on forums they would never say face to face. IMHO the people who run this forum should have stepped in and put a stop to it. Not only from common decency, but it reflects badly on their products.

This unfortunately is not a new problem. Years ago in usenet the miniatures group in alt.rec.games (I think, its been too long ago) used to explode in incredible flamewars. Some people like to bang words together just hear the explosions, I guess.

To answer your question, I don't think it was an overreaction. Apparently you did get caught up in it for a bit, but only after they attacked you. That is something that is really hard not to do. Trolls love it when you do that. Its the reaction they are looking for.

It may be worth contacting the company and seeing what they have to say or want to do about it.

I doubt they want adverse behaviour on their own forums.

Ah, alt.rec.games.historical how I remember thee.

The main lesson there was never, ever, get involved in an internet forum. It's a good lesson that I wish I had learned (along with never get involved in a committee).

Not having seen your post it is not possible to say if the over-reaction was your fault or not, this leads me to believe you made a mistake though.

> bringing my late wife into it (I had respectfully mentioned her in passing to illustrate my point about stats)

I can see any mention of an ex-wife as part of an argument/discussion being a trigger point. Such a thing almost always is considered bad form, even when it is not.

Then there this one.

> So rather than just not post anymore I politely enquired in a separate thread about how I could get this done, where was the link to the moderators please?

What did you expect? Those in the other thread KNOW exactly why you started the new one…

Just walk away, been there and done that, and never even got a tee shirt.

I feel that there are those who guard THIER FORUM from Internet invaders, and the first momment they see a weakness in you armor, their all over you like a can opener on can of beans, and for what, because your not part of them those who been there the longest, you poo pooed their point on the math even though you didn't they saw it that away, they only read the NOT INTRESTED IN THE MATH and no further, they didn't even read the next section BUT WILLING TO DISCUSSION.

Been there, just walk away

You will find that behavior on every forum including TMP. If the forum is relatively unmoderated and has few if any consequences for adherent behavior, this is the kind of ting you will get.

TMP was like this when I first joined in 2000. I once said something about shipping prices being way too high for MegaMinis for buying just a couple of figures. I got some constructive explanations as well as plenty of personal attacks. Right there and then I was considering leaving the forums. It was my gross dose of reality of what a forum could be like. Of course in those days, TMP did not have all the rules or even a DH to curb such behavior.

Another time, not all that long ago (I think the FOW board was relatively new) I posted some observations about a tournament I saw at Southern front. It was what I thought was a balanced observation of the game. The terrain was nice. The models looked great. Army mix was weird (lots of nebel werffers was one critisism tiger tanks another) and that the tank parking lot was apparent in several of the games. What do you think the response was? You guessed it. I was pretty much attacked from all sides except for Derek H. I don't think he came to my aide per se but just hated the game that much. At one point I was even called a

These are a few examples that happen here. Even today, you just need to go to the right board and say the right thing and you can get something like the same amount of abuse. If you think I am singling out the FoW board, you are wrong. Try the Napoleonic boards or the ACW boards.

While I don't think your comments deserve the abuse of a bunch of low-lifes still living in mama's basement, like others have said, it would be good to see what you posted exactly to render a fair view.

John

Largely what Bill McHarg said.

The problem for me is:

One) people use comedy names on forums which gives them all the legitimacy of graffiti, in my opinion. People write things on walls (and have done for millennia) that they would never write in a format/on a medium that meant people could identify the author. And yet we tolerate it…

That state of affairs generally leads to bad behaviour and sometimes leads to appalling behaviour and – as you've noted – cyber bullying. My approach to this is simple: Sign your names. Own your pinions. Or shut up. Failing that I will give your opinions as much recognition as I give to graffiti (ie very, very little).

Two) forums that are ‘moderated' by a company are – presumably – being run for the benefit of said company, if not for direct income generation, then as a marketing adjunct to the companies products as a whole. To my mind that makes the company responsible for the lack of moderation. In my opinion (but hey: I'm not a lawyer…). Write to someone further up in said company and complain about it.

And before someone talks to me about the rights to anonymity and how in some countries people get shot for saying the wrong thing on an internet forum, I do get that. And if that was the only reason for stupid nomme de plumes then fine: call yourself what you like. But – let's be honest – that isn't why 99% of people do it, is it?

John "My Real Name, Honest" Treadaway

It far more fun to just troll them, since they will jump at anything.

Forget the abuse that they put out, since it can't hurt you.

But don't go down to their level either.

Lots of forums (fora? – flame war…) can be like that. Try mentioning on TMP anything that suggests something done by Americans or America isn't wonderful, or that perhaps, just perhaps, the current hate object might just be not quite as bad as all that… watch the stifles climb and wait for the comments.

@Fighting 15s – thanks I'd forgotten about halt.wreck.games.historical – happy memories

@alanyork – a common occurrence on the internet especially when anonymity is guaranteed and fanboys' core beliefs are queried or dismissed by a newbie

Try mentioning on TMP anything that suggests something done by Americans or America isn't wonderful, or that perhaps, just perhaps, the current hate object might just be not quite as bad as all that… watch the stifles climb and wait for the comments.

Not sure this phenomenon is uniquely American. Change "Amercian or America" to any country you like that has representation on TMP and you will likely get the same effect. Doubly so if the poster is not from the country mentioned.

In these times when many people have realised that there is no god, nerdism is the new religion. If you question their 'holy book' you are bringing down the new crusade upon yourself.

Alan,

I'll probably see you before you see this so this is more for the benefit of others.

Knowing you well I quickly worked out which forum it would be and found the posts in question.

My view (and I treat you as a good friend in saying this)is that you aired your own view on something which you knew to be controversial. Fine in itself. But then when the responses inevitably came said a few things about the game design, concept and mechanics (not criticisms but your own points of view) which riled a few people. They came back to defend their corner. You came back to defend yours (and looking at the threads several posters were on your side) and then it escalated very quickly and got out of control.

I've got myself in your position on TMP itself and the best thing you can do is just walk away from the argument. Its a game and a hobby and meant to be fun.

Catch you later.
Aubrey

Scrivs has got it bang on with your issue when he says "If you question their 'holy book' you are bringing down the new crusade upon yourself".

'Not sure this phenomenon is uniquely American.'

It isn't. Got involved in a 'Iranian-exiles' couple of years ago and they really went from one extreme to the other. But TMP is mostly an American site and most of the fanatical Nationalists here tend to be American.

Yep, just get out. It doesn't matter who's right, who's wrong, whatever. Just dust your hands of it and leave. A forum is only worth participating in if you get something useful out of it.

-Will

Well first of all thank you for the feedback. So nice to talk to intelligent, respectful people again. Seems I played it just about right. Just a couple of points;

@Dynaman8789 Mandy passed away mate (leukaemia) she wasn't my ex wife. It was a typing error I know, you certainly meant no offence I am sure. The point I was trying to get across to somebody having a go at me for "disrespecting math"??? in X Wing because "math" prevents deaths…. was that stats mean nothing in real life, the odds of Mandy getting the leukaemia as an adult were infinitesimal and the odds of the treatment going wrong in the way it did were tiny also so I don't worship at the altar of stats as they do. I also pointed out that real death should not be equated with something as trivial as pushing bits of plastic about. I thought long and hard about that posting and frankly I had no idea it was "bad form" it just seemed the most effective way to make the point so thanks for enlightening me on that. If you're correct that it was a mistake to mention it don't worry, Mandy will certainly point it out to me when I go to her, she was good at "pointing things out" whilst she was here, I can't imagine she will change much during our temporary separation!

@Stenicplus? Do you still play Ancients and Medievals? FoG?

@Aubrey Viva la Republica!

@scrivs Only a tiny proportion of the world's population are atheist. I believe in God but whilst we may disagree on Faith (and obviously no way is this the place to discuss that), I think your Holy Book analogy is a good one.

I'm with you…..get out stay out.

It's called Internet Tough Guy Syndrome. People get all riled up and say things that they would never have the guts to say to your face, lest you feed them a fist down their throat. Some jerks thrive on the perceived anonymity of the Internet to act out like s. Few of them would be willing to say such things to your face. And they fail to realize that if they tick off the wrong person, they are far from anonymous in this digital age if someone is offended enough to track them down and administer a well deserved reckoning…

I'd say just walk away and be glad you don't have to deal with such jerks. Let them cower in their own little delusional world having a circle-jerk. :) Life is too short to worry about what some putzes in some Internet forum think of you. :)

Unfortunately millenials have grown up with technology rather than manners (and yes there are many exceptions to the rule). They're basically techno-barbarians. Just let it roll off your back and find a better forum. Sorry this happened.

The problem with most people is that they think that they can get away with such behavior on the Internet, but a lot of people would act in such a way in RL as well if they thought they could get away with it.

Using a 'handle' on the Internet might annonimize some folks, I've been using this handle for 10-15 years (maybe even longer), it's pretty much synonymous with my real name.

Imho the problem is that it's a poor discussion medium, you don't hear any tone differences or see posture of the person talking to you. Especially in discussions that are adversarial folks tend to use the worst possible interpretation of what their 'opponent' said and things escalate from there. What also doesn't help is that the Internet is a world wide thing, values and norms are different across the world, not to mention that certain expressions can be really, really badly interpreted.

What's also fun is that these hobby forums attracted folks from a lot of different groups. An folks that are joined in the joy of gaming can as easily be separated by their religious, political, etc. views if they are even mentioned in passing. That's the reason why a lot of forums forbid the religious/political discussions with a vengeance. Over time this includes Mac vs. Windows vs Linux, iPhone/iPad vs Android, and copyright discussions…

The bottom line is how badly do you want to be on that list, and what are you willing to put up with.

AlanYork, I can't really address your personal experience not having watched it all unfold. I will say that this is a depressingly common trend in the internet 'community', where anonymity seems to bring out more malice than candor.

Younger gamers -seem- to have it the worst, but some of the most skillfully malicious are older. Same mindset, but better skills at belittling and snark.

I see this ALL. THE. TIME. in online gaming, which is where I spend most of my time. Tiny differences of opinion or preferences are met with absolute rejection and abuse by like minded mobs, or as you accurately defined it, 'packs'.

The absolute rejection goes all the way up to and includes off forum whispers to encourage suicide, messages that urge the reader to accept that they are nothing and valueless, a blight, an aberration, and on and on. Who knows how bad it gets? How does it register in a way that can be measured?

In short, it sounds like you ran into typical malicious, online fandom, with a conformist and elitist attitude that is all too common.

Well done on getting out. In my experience (and I've been through the wringer on a certain MMORPG) there is no reasoning with such rabid packs. Ignoring them is your best move, and that is what you have done.

Good riddance to bad rubbish, and always remember that the best revenge is living well.

Don't add fuel to the fire or give them more ammunition to attack you with. Apparently you offended their delicate sensibilities and stirred up a hornets nest by casually mentioning that you don't care much for the numerical aspect of the hobby.

Just walk away and don't let it bother you. Words are not sticks and stones as we know.

Of course, sometimes you do see that face to face. I saw a fistfight over a game in a WRG ancients tournament at Origins back in the 80s. :)

I got all wired up at a game about 20 years ago. It was a WWII game. I was carrying mail back then, it was winter, and I had very long hair and a big beard to keep me warm. The argument was getting heated and I heard my brother in a stage whisper say "Let the Wookie win!" That pretty much put a stop to my arguing. :)

In online arguments, I just stop participating. There is usually no way to get someone who is serious about arguing to see reason in an online argument.

Alan – My condolences on your loss.

Unfortunately, people tend to make personal attachments to activities and hobbies, and thus respond to criticism of these as personal attacks. This is particularly heightened in the so-called geek community.

Dynaman8789 – Thank you. Mandy will come to collect me soon enough so there's no point in filling the time in God's Waiting Room dealing with gutless cowards like the ones who frequent that forum, you guys are right about that.

It's a pity because they will drive away new players from a great game.

I have made the moderators aware of my treatment there, I can only reiterate that my concern is the cyber bullying aspect that younger, more vulnerable people may be confronted with, it's a game system and subject that will appeal very much to younger as well as older players.

Again I thank you all for the wonderful input and I've replied to those of you who sent me their e mail address.

You meet morons everywhere, including on TMP (though very very rarely). Don't engage with them as that simple feeds their self delusionary frenzy. Mix with polite people who can show respect to alternative points of view such as those who have already responded.

Alan, best to walk away. That forum is not worth spending any energy on.

Reference on Mandy: If I need to emphasis the difference between real death and gaming I use historical references.
Such as how many were killed on the first day of the Somme.
Us older gamers are closer to war than the younger ones. Most of us have lost fathers, or grandfathers. Or they served in WW2, Korea or Viet Nam. You mentioned Mandy because she was close to you, trying to inflect what it is like to loose someone. This can be lost on those who don't really understand the finality of death, but get lost in the game.
I have a buddy who was in Viet Nam and recently played in the Purple Heart Golf Tournament in Washington State. Seeing veterans playing golf with no legs is sobering.

Yes, good point. I don't think they would have the knowledge of history for it to register though, it wasn't a forum on historical games and to be frank I didn't get the impression many of them could point to Vietnam on the map let alone know when that war was or what it was about. Nevertheless it may have been a better way for me to go.

When I was last in Washington DC I saw the memorials to the Vietnam War dead and the Korean War dead, very tasteful and very sobering.

Hmmm… how can I do this without 8 billion stifles and ignores…

I think you overreacted and unintentionally baited them to troll you.

And its all because of this statement:

"I realise that isn't the "received wisdom" and expect to be told I am wrong many times in many ways but that's just the way I see it."

With that you set the tone of "I am not listening and all responders are going to be haters."

The forum in question is an unmoderated mess that has more than a few trolls who frequent the site. The threads in question feature some of the biggest trolls piling onto the OP.
link
link

Although I tend to agree with Haywire, the OP seemed to rise to the bait every time. It's often best to just walk away from a fight rather than responding in kind.

Alan, you did the right thing.

I run a Wargaming forum and anyone acting in such a poor manner towards another member on that forum would find them selves banned. I believe that any forum should be trying to attract new blood to the hobby and try to inspire others.

I like Matts forum.
Good bunch of folk.

People say things on forums they would never say face to face. IMHO the people who run this forum should have stepped in and put a stop to it. Not only from common decency, but it reflects badly on their products.

Exactly.

While I post under a handle on all the gaming forums, I post under my own name one the others I frequent, including a firearms-related forum. On that firearms forum, my sig-block reads "Yes, that is my real name. I will not say anything to you here that I would not say to your face. And I don't give a damn what Uncle Sam knows about my online habits."

I'd consider changing my handle here, but everyone on TMP knows me as Lion, and the Infinity guys know me as Section9. I'd started both those handles before I shifted to using my real name, and only used "Section9" on the Infinity forums because that forum wouldn't accept "Lion in the Stars" as a handle.

If this firestorm was on a company's official forum, though, they should have been all over those threads like white on rice, handing out suspensions or outright bans. Failure to do so, even if the OP was a bit out of line, damages their brand image.

If I was a really nasty forum owner, I'd think about including a 'troll bit' that would make anyone with that bit set invisible to the regular users and only visible to others with that 'troll bit' set. I'd also tie their account to each computer that they use via PanOptiKlick computer fingerprinting, so that they'd be easier to ban outright. An outright ban would make it so that no-one could access the forum from that computer. Changing or obfuscating your IP address would NOT get you around the PanOptiklick ID.

Yes there was a troll on that thread and yes you should leave that forum.

A sad tale Alan. The only thing that I can add, and repeat to myself constantly, is that for every active member who trys to shut you down, or pick on others, there are probably dozens of silent but supportive or at least distinterested observers who are equally disgusted as you.

It only takes a couple of people to band together and loudly refuse to be bullied to change the dynamics of this thing. I try to do that here on the rare occasions it flares up and I encourage others to do the same.

ok, i'll ask: why in the world did you bring up your wife to a bunch of strangers? really. why do that? and on a wargameing board…
mean to say, thats not the place.

John Treadaway, I disagree. Anonymity allows me to be who I really am without worrying that potential employers would find things that cause them to toss my applications after Google-searching my name. It allows me to discuss my choice of porn without worrying that my family reads what I type. It allows me to discuss politics and religion without worrying that someone who knows me could take offense at my posts and shoot me. I've seen 2 Girls 1 Cup as well as 3 Guys 1 Hammer, but I'm not going to call my mother and tell her that. I'd talk about it at a pub with a couple of close friends, knowing that such discussions will go no further. I do not want to tack my name on to posts about urolagnia or why Warhammer 40,000 was a waste of money.

People have to remember it's only a hobby, a game, playing with toy soldiers … it is not real …

But TMP is mostly an American site and most of the fanatical Nationalists here tend to be American.

Damn Yankees !

I've just read the first thread and I agree with haywire, yes I think you overreacted. IMO there was only one comment on the five pages of that thread that I would consider could be taken as being personal or offensive towards you. I certainly wouldn't say that "all hell broke loose" or "all sorts of nastiness ensued".
If you didn't like the way it was going, I think it would have been better to just stop posting on that thread.

Damn Yankee can mean different things depending on whether you are in Europe or the American South ;)

Down here at 21 degrees north, all you Mainland Americans look like Yankees…