"zouave uniforms" Topic

It still amazes me today how there is such a misunderstanding of the Confederate Zouaves. As it stands there was only one Zouave regiment in the Confederate Service.

The regiment was formed and recruited by Gaston Coppens in New Orleans. Gaston Coppens was supposed to have served in the Crimea and have gone to the officers school in France. Non of this has been proven as there is no such person ever attending the West Point of France at all under that name. But that is for anohter story.

Wheats Tigers was only a company so that does not count. This as stated leaves Coppens. The battalion grew so large at first that it was broken into two seperate Battalions. One for the east and one for the west. The uniforms are the same and is as follows

Fez- Loose fitting and layed back red with a Dark Blue tassel
Jacket- Zoo Zoo type with yellow trim around the outside of the jacket.
Tombeaus- on the jacket are of yellow along with two yellow pipings along the back of the jacket as with the cavalry.

Paints where of red amd baggy with yellow knots about a quarter of the way down the pants leg from the top.

Gaiters are white with ocre colored Jambeiers trimmed in black around top and bottom

Accourterments are of black.

No knapsack was issued at the time of departure so every thing was carried in a blanket roll

Haversack of white linen or cotton but later black federal issues where used.

NO KEPIS WHERE EVER WORN BY THIS UNIT NO MATTER WHAT THE REENACTORS PAGE SAYS. THE ONLY KEPIS IN THIS UNIT WAS THOSE OF THE CHASSUERS ATTACHED TO THE ZOUAVES WHEN THEY BECAME UNDER-MANED.

Weapons- First issued the 1855 Rifled musket. After F-burg the unit was issued Austrian Lorenz in 54 cal and the 1842 smooth bore (of which we have found bullets at there campsite in Franklin Va.)

The above uniform comes from many years of research and an orginial painting at West Point NY.

I hope this helps our. Note the Zouave never recieved anymore of this uniform after F-burg. It was then placed in regular grey and sent to guard the Confederate Whitehouse and then on to Franklin Virginia. A shipment of uniforms was to be sent around this time period but somehow got side tracked and went to the 2nd battalionin Vickburg. And we know what happened there!!!!

I hope this helps
Peter Griffith

Due to the dearth of actual zouave units during the war, in relation to "regular" units, can their use (or over use) on wargames tables be attributable to anything besides "hey, neat troops?"

I think it's the same reason people want para or SS units in WWII games.

Agreed - I still have a brigade of LA Tigers in colorful costumes that I used as "eye candy" for Johnny Reb 3 games, even though all my research has shown that the unit marched into Pennsylvania during the Gettysburg Campaign wearing no such clothing, and freely procured civilian clothing, hats, socks, and undergarments throughout south-central PA. They're fun to look at on the table, but not historically correct.

I'v always figured on maxing out the Zouaves as much as possible, regardless of scenario simply for the "eye-candy" angle myself. Nice to see a splash of red amongst all the gray and blue.

How do you pronounce Zouave? Is it zoo - ave long A or short A, zoo-ahhv, zoo-wave? Thanks Rob

How about Marshal Soult? Is it Soo or Soo-ult?

Hi

I am busy painting up my 15mm collection for Fire and Fury and am creating Brigades of 10 stands which equates to representing 1500 - 2000 men. Therefore I have way too many Zouaves but hey they look pretty and they make unit recognition easier.

They always get shot first anyway so you need more to soak up casualties.

I know that it isn't historically accurate but they look nice on the table top and I enjoy painting them rather than the hordes of Blues and Greys....

MH

I say zoo-AHv.

Your milage may differ. "Guys in puffy pants" works also.

Pajama Guys

Hey jdarnold,
"Guys in puffy pants" I resemble that remark! Actually Birney's Zouaves didn't wear puffy pants. They are more of a chasseur style unifom. Just slightly baggy pants. And you are right, the pronunciation is zoo-AHv. Anyway, someone correct me if I am wrong, but from all my research, the Tigers were never issued brown jackets with the striped pants. They may have faded to brown after a while in the rain and sun. There was an article in Civil War Times a few years back about the well known Tigers execution, I think in Centreville, Va. The bodies were excavated, and they found the Zouave jackets still somewhat intact. They were blue with some deterioration to brown.

Czarsguard,
Can you verify that information about the Tigers? Sounds like you've done quite a bit of excellent research yourself! Were there any companys in Coppen's Zouaves which wore blue pants? Someone told me that there were, but I had never heard that before. I love the Zouaves. They bring color and recognition to the battlefield.

Sure Birney no problem,

First you are right on the color of the Tigers uniforms. At the Manasass events I commanded the combined Zouave regiment. Which had some very close friends of mine from the Tigers Company. The jacket as you say was Dark Blue trimmed in read and was not Brown. The brown jacket was as you said oxidized to the color we see which is really a redish brown.

As for Coppens eastern battalion no blue pants where worn by the zouaves. But (as usal always a but) The La. Chassuers where put in with them and that is where the blue pants come from. Also the kepis worn as reported in the Picayaun (sic)Times was that of the Chassuers and not the Zouaves.

Tigers did wear the bed ticking pattern pants. The reason for this was that is, it was bed ticking!!!! The pants that Birneys did wear as you stated was the Chassuers style. I have been working with Confederate issue uniforms for more than 30 years now.

I am not one who wargames and uses zouaves as eyecandy. Sorry guys but that does not do anything for me. I think it is an injustice to be honest to allow troops on the table that where not dressed as such. There where alot of zouave units out there to use. Many from PA and NY that will fit the billet. You can spice up a confederate unit with the mix of colors of greys and different trousers while on campaign. Take a look at Don T's Armistead at the wall and you will pick out many different colors of grey and hat colors. The same applies on the federal side. Faded colors of dark blue and kersey will give you some color. In my 2nd corps of 10mm I have a couple of Zouave units that where there. It gives just a bit of color. Remember this is the American Civil War and not a Napolianci battle. Dont get mad boys!!

Peter

Peter,
Thanks for the information. That is very helpful. I have been doing minor research on uniforms for years. Did I hear you say that Coppen's Zouaves wore the Zouave uniform at Sharpsburg, and the Chasseurs were with them then also? Were the Chasseurs pants dark blue or light blue?
When I am doing a historical battle, I use only historically accurate uniformed troops. But, sometimes I do a generic battle and include anything. Peter, you sound like a hardcore miniature wargamer. LOL. So, you must be a hardcore reenactor! And that is a good thing!

John

I like the Civil War because there is just enough color, but no so much I'd go insane.

To wit: Union troops uniform

Jacket: Blue with blue facings, blue turnbacks, blue cuffs and blue piping (no lace)

Trousers: Lighter blue with no visible buttons

Headgear: Blue Kepi, forage cap or black slouch hat. Maybe a cap badge, maybe a branch color. Maybe.

@ imnotanaga : The "zoo-ahv" pronunciation has already been settled, but just to answer your other question: Soult is pronounced "soo", definitely not "soo-ult". Hope that helps!

JD
Where did you get the information on the Frock you are listing?????

John,
By the time the Zouaves got to Sharpsburg they where a sorry sight. They had campaigned with Jackson in the valley and wore out the uniforms almost to the man. We know that the trousers where gone by then and replaced with items taken from the Harpers Ferry area. Jackets would not wear as much. In most of the QM reports that I have poured over mostly pants are what was needed. The Battalion was down to around 100 to 150 men by Sharpsburg. Coppens had some problems within the battalion (long story) and was trasferred to the 8th Fla as it's Col appointed by the Chief of Staff and was killed. (buried in a common grave)
As for the Chassuers by this time they where worse off than the Zouaves. Thier uniform did not make it past the 7 days. Dark blue is the color you are asking about.

The frock typically was dark blue with light blue piping in the collar and cuffs. As I recall that was it. Except for musians, I don't recall ever seeing light blue facing colors. Even then it was stripped facing. In the uniforms I have seen and worn the turnbacks are decorative, i.e. there were two buttons on the back of the jacket, but no button holes to create the turnback. To make the turnbacks work I had to stuff them into my waist belt, which I did on hot days. Even if the turnback worked, the color would have been dark blue.

Sorry for the change in the string topic.

Cheers

@ czarsguard: Just a sad joke regarding uniform colors of the American Civil War vs. the Napoleonic era. Seems someone is always waiting in the wings to split hairs over whether a unit had field green or grass green cuffs, etc. Just a joke. And a bad one at that. Since I plan on doing ACW in 6mm, it'll be dark blue jackets and light plue pants.

Back to your regularly scheduled thread ...

Man the joke is on me here pard! I thought for sure you where serious. Not a bad joke at all but a damn good one. You snuckerd me on that one!!!! Try 10mm! you all will like it better.

NOTE: The buttons in the rear of the frock was to represent false pockets. Some frocks had them on officers models and some on enlisted. But for the most part they where fake.

I am building Reynolds I CORPS (circa Gettysburg). I think the only Zouave regiment in I CORPS was the 84 NY (14 Brooklyn - Brooklyn Chasseurs). I have seen one picture which showed their uniform to be:
Coat Blue
Pants Red
Gaiters White
Kepi Red

My guess is that by the time of Gettysburg, this unit's uniform would have looked more like the Regular Union Infantry uniform.

Is this correct?

Dave in Austin

There are a couple of zoo-zoos in the 1st Corps Dave. The 14th was in it's uniform as I know at this point. I have a friend who is an expert on Ist corps I will get back to you shortly on this.

Peter

You are right in that only one was in the first Corps. It was the 84th NY (14th brooklyn) But again they wore chassuer uniforms.

Peter

There are a couple surviving examples of the 14th Brookyln's uniform in the collection of the National Park Service. One is on display in the Visitors Center in Gettysburg. It is the familiar red chassuer pants.

There are a number of primary sources that state that the regiment was indeed still wearing their distinctive uniform during the campaign ("those red-legged devils").

Scott Mingus

Gettysburg - York Gamers

Scott
Did they ever have to change over to the standard uniform? I can not find any indication that they did. Was that uniform supplied by the QM dept or supplied via NYSM stores?

Peter

Reference; there only being one confederate zouave unit, I know I don't know a lot, but recently I saw modern color plates for Maryland Zouaves, 2nd Maryland Infantry,Charleston Zouaves Cadets (TN) and the Salem Zouaves (VA).

Um. I've seen those plates or some others. The Charleston Zouave Cadets (of Charleston, South Carolina, not Tennessee) had the name, but their uniform was not zouave style. The Maryland Guard Zouaves were at most one company, may not all have had the zouave uniform, and probably didn't wear it in the field if they had it - a lot of expensive militia uniforms were laid up in cedar chests when the war broke out, while their owners outfitted themselves with cheaper, more practical clothing for active service. I dunno about any Salem Zouaves...

Zippy,
Thank you for putting this in. I am on vacation now down in sunny Florida so it was hard to get back on issues at times.

When the thread was started we where talking about full units such as battalions and regiments. While there where many companies of zoo zoos out there only one was reconized as official by the confederate states goverment and it was a battalion and not a company. The battalion was taken into regular service in Nov of 63 and disbanded on Jan 19th of 65 by orders of the war department at Franklin Virginia.

Though you may read on the Reenactors website about coppens what they have while some right if greatly in error of some facts.

Peter

guys did the L.A tigers at Gettysburg . were they wearing the tiger zouave uniform with the Fezes and the striped blue pants…

Greg,
La troops where sometimes called Tigers. What you are speaking of the the TIGER COMPANY of Wheats Battalion. Which after the 7 days it was disbanded and merged into several other La. battalions except Coppens Zouaves who did not want any of them. No Zouave unit wore any kind of dress in the confederacy after Fredricksburg that we know of.

P