"Dutch East Indies aeroplanes" Topic

Hi, I am looking for some(alot) of assistance, first point of note I am not an aeroplane guy. But I quite fancy trying out early Japanese expansions.

So I figured I look at early Zeros against a mix of pretty poor European planes.

First question is there a source for Zeros that are cheap? the next question is there a suitable Fokker D XXI and are there any other planes that make an appearance?

I guess if this is a bust it'll be the fighting tigers in P40's. What other planes are available to me for this period?

I know this is vague and any help is appreciated as I know very little and this is a side project in an area and period of the war I have never delved into before.

thanks in advance
jon

edit: i think a scale might be of use to those reading this, i am primarily looking for 1/144

This may give you a start:

link

Jim

Well first of you are not looking for D-XXI's. They bwere never deployed to the DEI.

You are looking for B-339D Buffalos; Hawk 75A-7s (P-36); CW-21b's and a few Hurricane IIB with the Volkes filter handed over by the British in the dying days of the campaign.

Bombers were the Martin 139WH the export version of the B-10.

There were lots of liason and recce types mostly single engined biplanes but there were some modern CW 22 Falcons and a couple of dozen Do-24K flying boats.

As for model availability 1/144th is a scale I know all about sorry.

Also the RAF and USAAF put in an appearance.

Have fun

Fatman

Wot Fatman said. I can thoroughly recommend the two-volume book set 'Bloody Shambles', which covers the entire air war in the Far East from 1941-42.

Most of the Japanese fighting (in terms of fighters) was done by by the IJA rather than the IJN, so the fighters were mainly Ki-21 'Nate', Ki-43 'Oscar' and a handful of pre-production Ki-44 'Tojo'. The IJN did put in the odd appearance though, so Zeros are by no means wrong for the theatre.

Likewise, I don't know anything about 1/144th, though absolutely everything is available in 1/285th.

Here are the major aircraft of the Netherlands fighting in the East Indies as of December 7, 1941. In 1/600 most are available from Tumbling Dice (TD). The B10 is made by someone on Shapeways.

Royal Netherlands Naval Air Service (MLD)
33 Dornier flying boats (TD)
35 PBY Catalina flying boats (TD)
6 Fokker T-IV float planes

Royal Netherlands Indies Army (KNIL)
83 Glen Martin B10 bombers (Shapeways)
71 Brewster Buffalo F2A Fighters (TD)
17 Curtis Wright W21 Fighters
13 Curtis 75A Fighters (TD makes this as the P36 Mohawk)

I don't believe the DXXI was used in the far east but TD makes one if you want it.

•2 Fighter Groups ◦72 Brewster F2A-2 Buffalos (B-339D)
◦24 Curtiss-Wright CW-21b Demons
◦24 Curtiss Hawk 75A-7s (TD makes this as the P36 Mohawk)
•3 Bomber Groups (6 sqdn) armed with 116 Martin 139WH bombers (export version of the B-10)
•1 Recon Group (about 150 aircraft, including 24 Do24K-2

More detail here

link

I thought I saw something about some Hurricanes in Netherlands servide but cannot confirm this. TD makes a Hurricane MKI

I cant help with 1/144

In addition to TD aircraft you can get decals from Doms Decals. I highly recommend his service though he does not carry all the TD aircraft.

Found this info:

Hawker Hurricane in Dutch Service

Delivery

In 1941, the Dutch East Indies Air Force ordered twelve Hurricanes, but they were not delivered because there was a shortage of powerplants. In late 1941, a total of 24 Hurricane Mk Is on route to Singapore for the Royal Air Force (RAF) were delivered in crates to Tjililitan at Jave for use by tbe Dutch East Indies Air Force. They had no radio equipment and no oxygen equipment. On 16 February 1942, they were flown to Kalidjati, where they were probably serialed (1 to 24?) and a red – white – blue flag was painted on the tail at Ngoro. Of the two squadrons of the Java Air Force, one squadron defended Batavia.

Operational Use

Two Hurricanes were destroyed during training. The Hurricane flown by pilot Hamming touched the ground with the propellor and the other, flown by sergeant Hermans, crashed during landing. On 21 February 1942, eight Hurricanes were surprised during their landing at Kalidjati by Japanese Nakajima Ki.43 Hayabusa (Oscar) fighters. Sergeant Jacobs turned up in a bombcrater, but two of the Hurricanes escaped to Tjikampek. On 26 February 1942, the last seven Hurricanes flew to Ngoro and on 1 March 1942 the Hurricanes attacked the invading Japanese landingcraft at Bantam Bay and Kretan. One Hurricane, flown by lieutenant Bruinler, touched a boat with the propellor, but reached Ngoro safe. Lieutenant Marinus escaped to Soerakarta, but his Hurricane crashed the following morning, whereby the pilot escaped safely. Vaandrig (pilot) Vink flew to Banjoermas. On 9 March 1942, the six remaining Hurricanes were set on fire by their crews at Ngoro.

Combat Record

The fighting at the beginning of the war in the Pacific had created a surplus of RAF pilots in the Far East, because many aircraft were lost without their pilots, and there was resentment at the handing over of the Hurricanes to the Dutch, whose pilots were less combat skilled. But, in two weeks, the Dutch Hurricanes destroyed or damaged thirty Japanese aircraft, for the loss of 18 to 20 Hurricanes.
There are no photographes of the Hurricane in Dutch service.

IIRC, there is at least one photo in 'Bloody Shambles'.

If you need Dutch fighter 1/144 decals, I have them.

I don't think so – have just flicked through volume 2 and not spotted anything.

Allen57
I really don't think that the Hurricanes could be Mk I's. All the ones sent to Singapore were MK IIB twelve gun models. I'm not even sure we were producing the Mk I by then. I've checked the only reference I have oon my hard drive.

Pearl Harbor and Beyond Dec 41 to May 42 by H.C. Bridgewater

And he lists the planes supplied to the Dutch as Mk IIB

Fatman

As far as I know no photos exist of Dutch Hurricanes.

Fatman

This project is going to be expensive/impossible to do in 1/144. CW-21 and P-36 are available only as white metal castings. Buffalo in white metal or gashopon pre-paint, but not Dutch. I don't know anyone who makes a B-10 or a Hudson in 1/144. Japanese fighters and bombers are available as gashopon or kits, but may be expensive to source.

On the other hand, all the subjects you need are readily available in 1/285 as white metal castings, with good ranges of decals, all easily found at reasonable prices. I urge you to reconsider scale for this project.

IIRC should then read IIRW. :)

Hey Fatman,

I thought the TD MKI Hurricane in 1/600 would be the best match for what our friend here wants. Would the Odzial Osmy Hurricane work better? I am not a fan of the Odzial stuff because while it is probably true 1/600 I feel it does not fit well with TD aircraft. Did not mean to imply that the Netherlands Hurricanes were MK Is.

Here is a profile of a Netherlands Hurricane listed as a IIb

Zippy, You are evil :>). Everyone knows the true scale for air combat is 1/600 (especially for people like me who cant paint worth a hoot.

Allen57
No problem, it's just the source you quote said Mk I's and it peaked my interest, what can I say I'm a Geek. At 1/600th a Hurri is a Hurri, except a IID, so the TD model is fine.

However all of my WW II are 1/300th scale. ;-P

Fatman

wow, that is a lot to consider, but if it is a non-starter at 1/144 then who/where should i look next? who are the manufacturers of 1/285?

thanks
jon

Ciaphas, Manufactures you want in 1/285-1/300 scale are Raiden, Scotia and Heroics & Ros.

ciaphas
You mention "So I figured I look at early Zeros against a mix of pretty poor European planes."

While the NEI theater doesn't supply this have you considered China, especially the early period 1937-1941?

This is where the Zero first saw action and the Chinese used aircraft from a variety of sources. Just including aircraft which are commonly available, from the manufacturers listed above, you can deploy:-

Gloster Gladiators
Fiat CR 30/32
Dewoitine D.510
Boeing P-26 Peashooter
Polikarpov I-15; I-153; I-16
Heinkel He.111B
Henschel Hs.123
Martin Type 139
Savoia Marchetti SM.81 Pipistrello
Tupolev TB-3
Tupolev SB

They also used large numbers of Hawk-75/P-36, however, during this period, these were the Hawk-75H model with a fixed spatted undercarriage which nobody makes. It is however easy to convert a standard P-36.

As stated above my WW II collection is in 1/300th that's because I've doing this for 30 years and have too many to change now. If I was starting over I would probably go 1/600th.

Fatman

And that Bleep was warranted the one in my first post was just petty.

Fatman

Actually the JNAF Tainan Kaigun Kokutai flew Zeros in the NEI. Originally based in Taiwan, they moved to Tarakan Island in January 1942, followed by moves to Balikpapan and Denpasar, Bali to support the Japanese offensive into the NEI. Japanese ace Saburo Sakai wrote about his participation in this phase of the war in his memoir Samurai and elsewhere.

I think the "doesn't supply this" was for the "pretty poor European planes", not the Zeros – the Dutch fighter arm actually had reasonably respectable equipment – the Curtiss-Wright was an agile little thing, their Buffaloes were mostly the good versions, not the dogs that the Brits and USMC got lumbered with, and the Curtiss Hawk, while certainly not in the Zero's league, wasn't exactly hopeless either.

Yup the Dutch East Indies didn't fit what the OP wanted, their air forces were pretty good actually, China is much closer to his "mission statement". Of course the major factor in the Zero's, and the less sparkling IJAAF aircraft, success wasn't the planes but the pilot quality/training.

Fatman

Lockheed 12/212 sometimes known as the JAVA bomber was a poormans Hudson. Was suppose to be a bomber trainer but ended up as a 'real' bomber dropping 4-6 50kg bombs and had one or two 7mm (303/ .30 cal) mg's in the nose. Some even had the bubble turret in the rear. Could probable use a Hudson as a stand in.

"Lockheed 12/212" I did exactly what V.Mallard said and used a Hudson as a stand in.

I've played the DEI campaign as part of the War in the Pacific game. The problem is not the quality of the Dutch aircraft or pilots (although they do lag behind the Japanese navy, in particular, in experience), its simply a factor of numbers, the vast size of the DEI and the lack of any integrated air defence system, decent radar coverage etc. 2.5 fighter groups can shoot down as many Japanese bombers as they possibly can (if they are foolish enough to go unescorted), but at this stage in the War the combined forces allocated to the meticulously pre-planned Japanese campaign, and the element of surprise, simply mean that the Dutch are outnumbered pretty much everywhere, and can't concentrate their meagre fighter forces to deal with large scale attacks because the distances are too great. By the time the RAF and USAAF react and get air forces transferred from the US to Australia and from the UK/Middle East to India, its too late. Malaya, Singapore, Burma, the Philippines and Indonesia are all gone or going fast and the Japanese have established fighter bases in those locations. A classic 'coup de main' on a grand scale. That said, one on one – especially against the IJA aircraft, the US P-40s and Brit Hurricane IIbs always do very well when they do arrive, and the Dutch (and even RAF/RNZAF/RAAF) Buffalos and Dutch P-36s make a decent fist of it too.

By the time the RAF and USAAF react and get air forces transferred from the US to Australia and from the UK/Middle East to India, its too late.

On December 7, the US had substantial air forces in the Phillipines and reinforcements en route, but these were wrecked in the fiascos at Pearl Harbor and Clark Field, and it took precious time to assemble more squadrons and fly them west. MacArthur had planned to hold the Phillipines with his B-17 bombers. Instead the Phillipines were lost, and reinforcement squadrons were hurried west piecemeal, into the bonfire of the DEI.

Creations Chaubet do a wide range of 1/144th scale aircraft.

cheers, turns out the Fokker was DWI. Still moving on with this project. Many thanks to everyone who has contributed, have zeros and am now looking to cobble together the Dutch.

jon

Take a look at Armaments in Miniature. They do a beautiful range of 1/200 scale aircraft with many early war planes covered.

1/144 scale white metal Hawk 75s are available from Reviresco at $8.50 USD:

tin-soldier.com/hawk75.html

Reviresco also makes the D510, the Gloster Gladiator, the Polikarpov I-16, the Fiat CR 32, and the A5M4 "Claude," all of which saw combat in China.

Continuing for the Dutch East Indies, we have the following in resin via HobbyLink Japan:

Brewster F2A-1: link

Brewster F2A-3: link

Curtis-Wright CW21: hlj.com/product/FIRA004/Air

Also for the Chinese there's the Curtiss A-12 Shrike: hlj.com/product/FIRA015/Air

The resin kits listed from HobbyLink Japan range between less than $8 USD to just a bit over $12.50 USD thanks to the Yen being weak versus the Dollar.

Hope all this helps!

Leland R. Erickson
Metal Express
metal-express.net

Hi,

Java 1942 is great in 1/144! Lots of choice and small engagements, and with 5 air forces (6 if the USN would join) great for multiplayer games. Plus several big and interesting landings and land engagements with armor.

I've got all the fighters that fought there (except the CW-21b), and all of them are plastic prepaints: Buffalo (Dutch/Brit), P-40E (US/Dutch), Hurricane IIb (Dutch/Brit), P-36 (Dutch), Nate, Oscar and Zero.
All of them from F-Toys, except the P-36, that's from Furuta. Only that one and the Hurricane need to be painted in an approprite NEI scheme (plus a tiny Volkes filter added to the Hurricane and the fixed gear of the P-36 removed)

Other planes: Dauntless, Ki-51 (again, all prepaints) and the Ki-48 from Aoshima (actually also available as prepaint).

And you can keep going: all the 4 flying boats are available in pastic and as prepaint, the Pete, and even the B-17 and B-24 are around somewhere.

What's missing are some of the lone patrolers, like the CW-22, and of course the Martin 139 WH-3, but perhaps Shapeways can help there? If you want to add more RAF stuff, Zvesda should soon do a Blenheim.

I order my stuff through Rakuten (Japanese eBay) or 1999.co.jp/eng/, after several very bad experiences with HLJ.

If you want to know more about the airwar over the NEI, read P.C.Boer's books: it was a much closer thing than is usually believed, with too many 1's being rolled by the allies and too many 6's by the Japanese. One can only imagine how it would have been, had the Brits put their radar to better use there, or with fewer 1's and 6's.

And for your rules: the Dutch used a lighter Buffalo which they further lightened by halving the ammoload in the wings: in that configuration it could turn with the Oscar.
Also, the Martin 139WH-3 was most numerous and a much improved version of the WH-1 and -2.

Cheers.