"GW: Guilty as charged? " Topic

No wargaming blog would be complete without referring to Games Workshop.

The company has as many fans as detractors, but it can hardly be denied that GW has had an enormous influence on the wargaming hobby. Many current wargamers started with GW games, even if they no longer play them. And a large part of the "new batch" still enters the hobby through GW's products. Still any topic dealing with GW in general terms, their products or their policies risks erupting into bitter disputes very soon.

There are as many reasons why this is so as there are people discussing GW, so I will not attempt summaries and analyses. Instead, I will just examine my own opinion. It's a …..

Interested? Read more on my blog link

I can see where it has had a big impact on fantasy gaming but I don't think it has had much impact on Historical gaming. Thus, when you say "wargaming" overall, not sure I would agree with you Pijlie. Just my opinion.

It always surprises me how many current historical gamers started out with GW games. It has something to do with age of course. Anyone who started before 1975-1980 would have known little or nothing about GW. But from 1980 onwards it is significant.

So I think the difference between fantasy and historical gaming bears no relevance here. It's how people started in the hobby that shows GW's influence, not what they do now.

How did you start out, for example?

The other area of influence is in the explosion of 'hard' plastic, multipart figures which Games Workshop pioneered in the fantasy and sci-fi market years ago and have just started to take root in the historical scene.

I started wargaming 'properly' in 1985. GW was never an influence on me. Callan, Miniature Wargames, 'Charge!' and my local wargames club were the primary influences.

Perhaps it is different for European players? GW started expanding into the US at a later date I think? The nineties?

It does depend upon what circles you move in, Pijlie. I've seen local groups where many of the members came into historical wargaming through GW, but overall they constitute a very small percentage of the wargamers I run into (and I have run into a lot of different wargamers over the decades, playing with various groups and attending dozens of conventions across the north-central and northeastern US.) Before GW, there was a similar movement of gamers that entered the larger Hobby through D&D (which occupied a position of influence and popularity in the '70s analogous to their later counterpart) and then drifted into miniature gaming, and ultimately into historical miniature gaming.

I have no doubt, however, that many of the D&D and GW converts would have found their way into historical wargaming by some other route . . . I was a dedicated historical gamer before I ever became aware of any commercial wargame companies. I have never owned a GW miniature or played a GW game (or any that were influenced by or derived from them) and there are many more gamers like that among those with which I am acquainted than there are converts.

It is also possible that GW's predatory marketing techniques and heavy-handed attempts to co-opt the entire hobby as their own personal fiefdom have permanently and utterly put off as many gamers as have been led on into other miniature games.

Overall, while their influence among fantasy gamers has been significant, they were never as dominant or as central to the hobby as a whole as their customers (or their management) seem to think they are. They are an interesting sidebar to the ongoing story of a hobby that is much larger and more multifaceted than they were ever willing to admit.

I see your point Pijlie about when you came into gaming, however, I would agree with War Artisan, I have known many historical gamers and none of them started with GW or even fantasy.

Your agreement to disagree is -like I wrote elsewhere- striking.

However, I never proposed that all wargamers have GW roots and War Artisan for one, having played wargames since the sixties, would not have been influenced by GW since GW did not exist at the time. More importantly, the blog isn't at all about GW being or not being influential.

Out of sincere curiosity; is this the core message you take from the blog?

is this the core message you take from the blog?

Actually, no.

I'm pretty much in agreement with your blog post. I was responding to your second post in this thread (06 Jul 2014 10:15 p.m. PST).

Games Worshop is how it all started for me. The box-set with Grom's goblins invading the homeland of Eltharions high Elves. Wonderful stuff.
I will always have a soft spot for GW because of those wonderful childhood memories, but I hate the way the company has gone in later years. Totally abhorrant the way they exploit children (and adults for that matter), and a visit to the store nowadays is to see the magic replaced with a greedy corporate sales pitch.

I just play Napoleonics now, although Is still have all my GW stuff.

Thx for replying. I was concerned.

Maybe because I move in the same circles as Jeff (War Artisan) I've not seen many gamers coming from GW. I predate GW in my wargaming interest, indeed I used to live up the road from the 'hole in the wall' gaming store in Hammersmith in west London where they started. They got their break doing UK imprints of US RPG during a period when the exchange rate was unfavorable between the two currencies. They then wanted to do Citadel Miniatures to D&D figures. I get the impression they drifted into the current business plan.

Not seem many people moving the other way.

Big difference I see locally (Twin Cities – for you non-Merkins, it's in the middle at the top just down from the Canadian border.) Is the historical gamers always paint their miniatures, where are the sea of raw metal in GW games is a wonder to be beheld. I suspect that the mass of painted miniatures maybe intimidating to the newcomers.

Unlike Jeff I do have some GW products, mainly because I wanted some miniatures to use in "Star Grunt" and really like the Sisters of Battle figures.

Over the years I've heard that many things would kill wargaming; RPG's, GW, video games, Magic the Crack Addiction (that one really scared the RPG crowd in the early 90's) point is I see there is plenty of room for wargaming and "The GW Hobby"(tm).

(Any infraction of GW copyright by using words like, but not limited, to "Gaming", "Gamer", "Wargaming", "figures", "west", "London", "Hammersmith", "Twin Cities", "middle", "top", "the", "and", "wall" are covered under fair use rules of international copyright.)

138, thanks for the laugh with your last paragraph. I'm pretty GW isn't evil but I wouldn't really know 'cuz I don't care a wit. Pure historical gamer – though I am planning to play in an upcoming cave man game at the club. I can handle that mix because it doesn't violate the laws of physics, just the laws of probability. And I like my 'history' fun, not serious.

Actually Early Morning Warrior, it was TSR Inc who started that trend with their "Indiana Jones" rpg where they actually tried to copyright the words "Nazi" and "Thug".

I struck me as the kind of thing that GW might just try. :-)

Airfix is how I came in, but GW painting and modeling improved my wargaming by enhancing the visual appeal. Wargames Illustrated had already laid that ground but GW provided more instruction on the craft side.

I own a lot of GW/Citadel stuff (rules, figures, paints) but have never once played one of their games. So their contribution to my hobby is mixed but mostly positive.

Dear Early Morning Writer and 138th Squadron RAF

I don't let it bother me. The last paragraph does not document a new phenomenon. SPI back in the 80's I believe under Jim Dunnigan tried to copyright the word "Nazis." The court told them to go pound poo. So this sort of megalomania has been around fro a while.

I've been around this hobby since 1962 and I agree with you. Many things were going to kill the hobby, including the simple "graying" and dying off the hobby. Well we're still here, so I take these "après moi le Deluge" with a grain of salt.

Little boys will be playing with their toys eons from now.

Otto

I have never owned a GW miniature or played a GW game (or any that were influenced by or derived from them) and there are many more gamers like that among those with which I am acquainted than there are converts.

Many of the leading manufacturers and rules are from ex-GW employees. Many of the miniatures companies and figure sculptors are also ex-GW or Citadel employees. I think the GW influence goes much deeper than you may realize.

SPI back in the 80's I believe under Jim Dunnigan tried to copyright the word "Nazis."

That was TSR, and it's a bit of an urban legend.

link

Pijlie, I carried GW products at my store in Alabama in 1984. I stopped in 1985 when they began the policy of requiring large purchases on a quaterly basis.

Yes it was TSR that tried to copyright 'Gestapo' not Nazi for their RPG 'Top Secret'. the author was a store owner in Birmingham Ala. I will check my files and see if they tried Nazi too?

It was ostensibly "Nazi" for the rpg "Indiana Jones." And, as in the article above, it's a bit of a myth.

I remember the shop in Hammersmith – visiting it was more of a pilgramage than anything else (and it was pretty hard to get to). The D&D prints they did were the only way we could afford the rules, although the binding was crap and they fell apart. White Dwarf was required reading. Citadel miniatures were the bomb.

Canning lines that are not profitable, although popular is pretty much standard for a business

So I can have some sympathy for a business that grew and then had to remake itself.

I don't think wargaming is the place for big business thinking in the first place – perhaps that is the real crime.

The website is a prime example. If it cost 4 big ones to build that thing, then I am in in the wrong business.

John