"When limbers get in the way..." Topic

I finally have some AWI limbers and was excited to use them, but the first time I did I realized they take up a lot of space and can hinder deployment of the guns as opposed to just using a gun without a limber and just indicating its status with a marker or which way it is facing in regard to the enemy. Are there any special rules suggested when limbers are in use? For example, when the gun is deployed can it be deployed in a space that was physically occupied by the limber moments before it was unlimbered? What about when it is a target? If the limber is in range, but not the model gun per say is the gun in range?

I agree that limbers look great, and really add to the spectacle of a horse and musket battle. How much of an effect the size of the limber base should have on the game rules should really depend on the scale of the game. If the game area represents a small battle space, maybe a few thousand yards, the limber can be used to represent the whole battery, and would be a valid target itself. For games where the entire battle of several miles across is represented on the table, a limber base may be over-size.

I remember that Napoleon's Battles had batteries in limber represented by the marker you mentioned, unless the battery was also in march column formation, in which case you used the limber.

The answers to your questions would therefore depend upon the rules you are using. Are these your own house rules? Then you decide!

Cheers,
Timotheous

Sounds like a realistic result on the table. All those horses limbers, caisson, etc did take up a lot of space.

Yes, one disadvantage is they take up a lot of space, one advantage is this is how it's supposed to be.

Peter Gilder had a method: use the limber and horses and gun to represent a battery not deployed and then replace with guns and crews when deployed. Nice and simple.

We use a simple convention that when the guns face the gunners they are limbered and when unlimbered the guns face the enemy – or at least where it is hoped the enemy might be.

Otherwise, standard rules for artillery per whatever rule set in use.

They are SUPPOSED to get in your way and interfere with your deployment. Their function is to demonstrate that you can't get everything you want.
That's why I love them.

I was going to write essentially the same thing as John the OFM. They are supposed to get in the way, which the Republic to Empire rules (admittedly for Napoleonic gaming) provide for very nicely in terms of a large footprint for artillery batteries.

G'Day John,

I agree with you…but if I recall correctly, you use 25mm/28mm figures…that is a lot of money to show everything that is with a battery…

And I also like the idea that it may be a horse or caisson that is hit…

At 25mm/28mm I only have one cannon to represent a battery…but then again I play at 1:60 scale…and it's the figures that represent the number of tubes in a battery

Poor man's approach I suppose ;-)

Best Regards
Art

TMP link

I agree. Limbers should be represented as they are a part of the foot print of the battery.

Limbers are not that expensive for 28mm AWI gamers.
I got mine years ago from Hinchliffe and RSM, and they were cheaper than artillery pieces.
And now, Old glory sells 3 for … $35 USD? and if you have the Army Card, you get a 40% discount.
So, cost is not an issue.

Yes, the limbers do take up a little bit of space behind the cannon and would impede movement through and behind the battery:

Here is a single cannon and limber (RSM limber team and Minden artillery crew):

Sometimes the equipment needs some repair work:

Here is an idea that I borrowed from Barry Hilton showing the cannon, a stand of artillery laborers, and a supply wagon. Limber is not shown.

And here is the whole enchilada: limbers, supply wagons, workers and actual cannon and crew:

The above picture uses a wide assortment of figures and equipment from various ranges. The gun crew are Minden, the cannons are Berlin Zinnfiguren, the limber teams are RSM, the wagons are from Front Rank.

Thank you for the input everyone. As to Footprints, a couple of thoughts:

1. When a gun is unlimbered obviously there is movement so doesn't it make sense to allow the gun to end up in the space the limber was occupying?

2. Sure limbers get in the way, but at least in the games I play a single limbered gun can be as long or even longer than a 400 man regiment in column, and I am not using horse artillery. That seems to be a much larger footprint than they would take up historically. :). This also ties into my first point.

Very impressive Der Alte Fritz!

It must be remembered that the bases we tend to use are already artificially deep just in order to accommodate the cannon model. A deployed battery without limbers would actually occupy about the same footprint as a deployed infantry unit in three deep line. I think that it is more than fair to consider the limbers as part of the typical wargame base.

That being said, I try to make my artillery bases as shallow as possible and use a single limber per battery. The limber base is long ways when the unit is limbered and sideways behind the base when deployed. Figures per base generally denote the size of the battery. I do sometimes remove the limbers though base on which era I'm gaming.

I also agree and as I play GdB where as each model cannon represents 2, I use 2 limbers and 1 caison for each battery. Gives enough of a foot print on the table to cause some issues. I look at this a as a reprensentation of the realistic problems in deployment of your troops.

In the AWI games I play, there are no "grand batteries". Each brigade gets one or two guns, with limbers. They crowd the roads, which they should. However, once deployed, they are part of a linearly deployed brigade. If they get in your way in that case, you are already in more trouble than just having limbers in the way!

Well, there was one at Monmouth, but how "grand" one might consider a dozen or so guns is another matter.

I think a key point made earlier in the thread is about game/ground scale. In a game like General de Brigade with 1"=20 yards or so and each gun model representing a section the limbers provide depth necessary to show how a battery clogged things up. Using Age of Eagles at 120 yards to the inch a single gun stand covers an area 180 yards square – plenty to include the limbers and wagons within its footprint (the equivalent representation for GdB would be a 6" square). A limber stand to fit the model would be something like 500 yards long in AoE.

As another poster mentioned, I would certainly allow the guns to unlimber in the space that had been occupied by the limber model, then place the limber behind the gun to continue occupying the space.

Phil

G'Day Gents

If I may, the term grande batterie simply means a large battery. Whether you have 50 pieces, 30 pieces, or 12 pieces together, all are massed batteries.

Any massed battery had the benefit of centralizing it's firepower under one command.

Best Regards
Art

The "figure scale to ground scale" issue rears its ugly head again.
That is what the so-called hub-to-hub tanks in Flames of War is due to, when in reality they are 50 yards apart. Or more.
A lot of suspension of disbelief goes into wargaming.
I use limbers because it just seems like I should, and because I think they SHOULD crowd roads.

Fritz's third picture above is exactly how I mount my RSM limbers. The gun hangs off the end of the base, The gunners march on either the base or behind.
When I unlimber to set up the gun, it goes right at the front of the base. Then the limber goes "close enough" behind the gun and crew.
I can't remember when this has ever been a game issue.
We accept them, and realize they get in the way.

Acceptance is the key.

I usually only like limbers fro when the gun is limbered and moving. When the battery is in action they would be retired at least 100 paces anyway.

I use limbers in my American Civil War Game which uses the old "Woodens" soldiers. they are large, with six horse teams, and a bit fiddly to use but I love them. Makes the visuals look great. I also use them as a marker, and a gun whose limber is destroyed cannot move.

The other thing ting is that my rules "Magnolia's Mint Juleps N' Gritz is quite forgiving of this and it can be handled easily.

It all depends on the ground scale you use and the size of your figures/bases.

I could really care less about ground scale versus figure scale. I play in 25/28mm scale. My ACW rules are an adaptation of "Impetus", with 1 base representing a brigade. The bases are 120mm wide by whatever looks good for a vignette effect. Although limbers are not required in the rules, I use them as they add a lot of visual appeal, and THAT, along with fun is what I am striving for.

With the word "wargame" I prefer to put the emphasis on "game". I played plenty of simulations, VERY detailed simulations in the military. I don't want, nor need, that sort of detail to both have a good, fun, game, as well as teach various tactical ideals with my scenarios.

But, I do feel that if YOU want that level of detail, then limbers ought to be included. If you fancy yourself a brigadier, then allowing for maneuver and deployment space is a part of your job.

V/R

Ottoathome,
"Wooden soldiers?" Wow! Any pictures you would be willing to share? That sounds interesting.

Dear Redcoat 55

I can't post pictures on TMP as I simply won't work with a hosting service- cheap- paranoid. The figures are lazer cut from basswood with very handsome printing done and laminated on the flat side. Becuause they are thick enough and the printing excellent enough when you have them on the table they LOOK 3 dimensional. They are about 30mm high. Anyway the line "Woodens" was from "Windcatcher graphics" now gone out of business sadly. They made American Civil War, Foreign Legion/Arabs, and were starting into Rogers-Rangers.Indians. I bought a whole pile of them.

If you want pictures send me your postal delivery address to sigurd@eclipse.net and I will send you a disk with pictures in Jpeg on it, or I will send you some directy on e-format.

If you send me the postal address I will send you the rules for my game "Magnolia's Mint Juleps N'Gritz" as well.

By the way I continued the idea of "The Woodens" into the game set up. I made all the terrain "two dimensional" like the woodens, but used my Corel Draw to really make the art realistic so it looks three dimensional. Everyone knows that every Civil War Battlefield must have a wheatfield, a stone wall, and a peach-orchard and sunken road, and I make these out of thin foam-core with three vertical pieces that go into "slots" in the base one with wheat rows, the other with peach trees, and the third with walls and fences etc. The buildings are the same 2 1/2 dimensionals. They are flat pieces which notch together into a cross form and go into a foam core base. This means they allow the miniatures to be put IN thehouses on the base so there is no lack of clarity as to where they are. Railroads, rivers, and roads followed.

The trees operate under the same sytem, two notching sections (like how inserts in wine bottle cases are) are slid together and then put into the base on a forest plate. Hills are simkply thicker pieces of foam core.

Limbers and caissons did take up a lot of space, but they seemed to be quite good at fitting themselves around other units. They would not have been as much of an obstruction as their representation on the table usually implies. In historical accounts the space taken up by limbers and caissons is rarely a factor that gets mentioned, except road space when marching in column.

Since my gaming (Napoleonic) is at grand tactical level, with 15mm figures at typically 1 in = 150 yds, I have got away with ignoring them.

I find that rather unsatisfactory visually, though. My next move is to reduce the depth of gun bases (to 30mm) and represent limbers with just one pair of horses. But if they get in the way I'll remove them from the table, if the battery is deployed.

I would really like caissons to be on the table too, and I'm trying to think of excuses to bring them on.

If memory serves me right, I think John Hill said in JR2 that limbers are optional and have no effect on the game because they take up way too much room than they did in an actual battle. It's like playing with aircraft carrier size objects on a 15mm scale battlefield.

I use them in 15mm ACW just for looks. They have no effect on the game. Units can move through them at will. They can be picked up and moved out of the way. They are furniture. If we don't have enough limbers we just turn the gun facing the other way or use markers.

I have thought of using them in the 28mm AWI because there were not that many guns in most battles. Maybe one limber per side. Again no effect on the game. Just for appearance.

I am sure someone has played a battle the size Monmouth Courthouse in 28mm battalion scale (and will provide pictures of same) with a limber for every gun. I would just use a few for appearance sake. That is unless rules say you have to have them.

Looking at one of my books (no not Fanny Hill), it seems that a deployed eight gun battery has a depth over 200 meters. This include the limber line and three lines of caissons. If one's ground scale is 1:10 or 1:20 then having the limber should represent that depth nicely. If the scale starts getting greater then the gun and limber starts to take up more space than it would. You are now creating more congestion than in reality. There is the same problem in some WWII gaming, and their solution is to remove the trucks/limbers when the gun is deployed.

Is this the follow-up thread to "When bricoles attack!"?

There is/was a company trading in wooden figures out here in California. Unfortunately, I don't recollect the name of said organization. But he's shown up and demo'ed his product at the Bay Area conventions so check with them, maybe. Sorry, don't know the scale but they were larger size. Not Wind Catcher. Very popular with the youngsters, very.

Also a GdBde player. One limber and caisson per battery. Both set sideways across the rear of the deployed guns as stated above. I just figure from everything I read that they take up beaucoup space and that's that. Any friendly troops have to take a formation test when passing through.

And when using bounce through, the caisson or limber it at risk also from firing. C'est la guerre.

pbishop12 says:

Any friendly troops have to take a formation test when passing through.

During the ACW, lines of infantry passed through deployed artillery with ease. Regiments trained for this maneuver, where a unit, advancing in line (or retiring in line) faced to the flank, then each company immediately turned in colums of 4. The wide space between guns/limbers/caissons was more than sufficient for individual companies to advance/retire through. As soon as it cleared the guns, the command was given and each company went back into line, reforming the whole unit.

The whole formation change on each side of the battery took a handful of seconds and would have no effect on a unit's "disorder/order" status, or even the speed of it's advance.

V/R

I'm one of those that feels the clutter of limbers, supply wagons, etc. adds to the realism of the game. it forces units to break formation when passing through them and make the Commander think twice about which formation to use and direction to go.