Whirlwind | 04 Jul 2014 8:24 a.m. PST |
Sam Mustafa said he isn't going to engage with TMP any more on this thread TMP link . I for one find that a great pity, lots of his posts were really interesting. |
John the OFM | 04 Jul 2014 8:47 a.m. PST |
I will miss him. From his point of view, the stalker(s) won. There is an extreme Stifle and Ignore, and that is to not come here any more. That is the most extreme way to "Violate my Free Speech Rights!", and that is to remove yourself from any contact with people you consider obnoxious boors. I can see his point, and more to the point, of all the people involved in that "debate", he is the one I would miss the most. Here is a perfect example of how the Stifle SHOULD have been used. Sam should have stifled his tormentors. But then, Sam is the type who would not. I hope this thread becomes a "Come back, you big lug!" thread and someone who is in contact with him will forward a link. |
Caesar | 04 Jul 2014 8:48 a.m. PST |
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Cardinal Ximenez | 04 Jul 2014 8:50 a.m. PST |
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Murphy | 04 Jul 2014 9:01 a.m. PST |
Great Googly Moogly
.I am so glad I missed out on THAT train wreck
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Jcfrog | 04 Jul 2014 9:02 a.m. PST |
Too many personal attacks in what should be a free world can be tiring. It is not always easy to stay calm when one puts a lot of work and feelings in some projects to see it nick picked at all the time. I don't like many things in his games,though they are good games. His choices and so what? You can't please all and should not even try, nor should you believe you detain most of the absolute truth. In military history, when one makes the effort to look properly, there are some facts often overlooked by gamers and rules writers. So what? Then did we not believe no game rule resists tinkering. No one here should want to impose his (las no hers) versions at all costs. |
Texas Jack | 04 Jul 2014 9:05 a.m. PST |
That thread was a classic example of how TMP can go from discussion to train wreck in no time at all. And John´s Hitler thread too. Read every thread, you never know what will be lurking in the shadows. |
Great War Ace | 04 Jul 2014 9:15 a.m. PST |
Too bad for him, then. Everyone has a limit
. |
Sergeant Paper | 04 Jul 2014 9:20 a.m. PST |
Given that he's apparently had the same argument with McLaddie for more than a decade, why DIDN'T Sam stifle him? |
Bandit | 04 Jul 2014 9:25 a.m. PST |
As far as I read the thread Sam is leaving because he doesn't like Bill expressing criticism of wargame design in general or pertaining to his games not because he was harassed or attacked personally. My understanding is based on reading Sam's post where he says he is leaving. Cheers, The Bandit |
Jcfrog | 04 Jul 2014 9:39 a.m. PST |
The only useful thing I see in this stifle in that case, if even a glance over what the other one wrote hurts the retina, the stifle. as I understood the malignant input disappears to your eyes? I don't think I would use it. |
nnascati | 04 Jul 2014 9:41 a.m. PST |
A real shame, Sam is a good guy with a lot to offer the hobby. |
Jimmy da Purple | 04 Jul 2014 10:44 a.m. PST |
I am sure there is a lot of back story I do not know. When it got all crazy, I just stopped reading it. Sometimes you just got to ignore the crap. It is a shame to see him go, maybe he will be back. It is a shame that so many of these conversations go off the rails and get personal. |
morrigan | 04 Jul 2014 11:12 a.m. PST |
Hadn't read the thread until now. What a load. I play GAMES because they are FUN. It doesn't matter how I define "games" or "fun". All that matters is that I enjoy it. Throw as much pseudo-intellectualism at it as you want to that's all that matters to me. Hope Sam stays. I hate to see anyone run off of TMP by that sort of crap. |
Sergeant Paper | 04 Jul 2014 11:31 a.m. PST |
The only useful thing I see in this stifle in that case, if even a glance over what the other one wrote hurts the retina, the stifle. as I understood the malignant input disappears to your eyes? I don't think I would use it. You didn't read the part where Sam said McLaddie's been posting criticism like this for more than a decade? How on EARTH do you get "
if even a glance over what the other one wrote hurts the retina
" from a years-long pattern of behavior? |
ratisbon | 04 Jul 2014 11:41 a.m. PST |
I'm sorry Sam left. I hope it was the press of work more than Bill. Bill's challenging and irritating and exasperating in his persistence but I think he means well and while he is verbose at times he often hits the nail. Sam simply needs to be more patient. I hope he stays. Cheers, Bob Coggins |
Bandit | 04 Jul 2014 12:10 p.m. PST |
Sergeant Paper, You didn't read the part where Sam said McLaddie's been posting criticism like this for more than a decade? That made it sound like Bill was constantly tearing into Sam's stuff, he hasn't been. Bill talks about concepts in general typically and then asks questions about how they relate to historical occurrences. It is technically criticism but it isn't like Bill was running around yelling, "YOU! YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG, YES YOU!"
from a years-long pattern of behavior? I don't know that it is really a behavior pattern. Bill expresses his opinion on the topic when the topic is brought up and he does so consistently. That is actually pretty normal among
all of us. If we're at a party and someone brings up X topic and we have an opinion we participate in the conversation by sharing that opinion. If a month later we are at another party and the subject comes up
we share our opinion again. I'm not sure why Sam took it personally, guess I'm not entirely sure if he did but that was the sense I got from his last post, but what I can say is that I don't read anything in Bill's posts that is directed at anyone personally, Sam or anyone else. Regarding Jcfrog's statement, I'm not sure how someone can disagree, if someone is driving you nuts, no matter how or if it is intended, stifling them makes more sense than leaving to me. Bill's challenging and irritating and exasperating in his persistence but I think he means well and while he is verbose at times he often hits the nail. Yes. Bill and I have had it out before and somehow found common ground and now correspond in a friendly and useful manner. His thoughts on here are long and typically if I asked him something on TMP he'd post back 3-4 times, each response a good page or so before he'd say something that I could tell directly addressed my question. That's sometimes his style, he works through it aloud in large chunks. It works just fine in friendly conversation but between two opposing people debating it does lead towards greater discontent. So goes, I agree with Bob that this might have been avoidable. I am not excited that Sam is leaving but if someone can't stand to be here, I suppose it is the right move. If asked for my advice, which I wasn't, I'd say it would make more sense for Sam to stifle Bill than to pickup his toys and go home, it is a big playground here and there are options for neutral corners. Cheers, The Bandit |
NWMike | 04 Jul 2014 12:38 p.m. PST |
I'm sorry, but this strikes me as an over-reaction. If the friction between 2 posters is that intolerable – that is what stifle/ignore is for. To be honest, I looked at the original thread and I still don't know what all the animosity was about. "Not only did you miscount the number of angels dancing on the head of that pin – you counted them using base 10! According to the Leikos treaty of 175 AD (confirmed by the Papal Bull of 11230, you can only count angels using base 8!" |
CATenWolde | 04 Jul 2014 1:49 p.m. PST |
I understand Sam's frustration. I've long since decided to try and treat TMP simply as a handy source of basic information: a place to find out what's new, or to ask brief questions about practical hobby matters. Attempting to make it anything more than this invariably fails. I don't know if it has actually always been like this (and it was I who was originally deluded by my own hopes), but I rather think it has gotten worse year by year, with the accumulated layers of internet opinion, steadfastly and verbosely held, slowly manuring the field until nothing can grow for all the . So, to Sam I say – thank you, and only come back if it's useful and a part of making the hobby more enjoyable for yourself! Cheers, Christopher |
Bandit | 04 Jul 2014 2:35 p.m. PST |
I'm with NWMike: I'm sorry, but this strikes me as an over-reaction. In general I am not a big fan of Stifle but this is exactly what it is for isn't it? Over the years I have made herculean efforts to ignore you and resist your pointless provocations and your need for endless argument, but I have obviously failed once again. So here's a "productive" proposal : I'll do the smart thing and finally disengage totally from TMP, in order to avoid feeding your obsessions any more. I think this part is really sad, it appears, to me, that Stifle is not a "herculean" effort so had Sam just taken a deep breath and said, "I'm going to Stifle Bill because he and I don't see eye to eye and I don't want to get aggravated," then this thread we're in right now wouldn't exist because Sam wouldn't be leaving. That said, I think the argument between the two of them doesn't actually take place between the two of them, I have participated in a lot of threads where Bill goes on about theories of game design and he and I have hashed about it and he never rags on Sam. Anyways, always a shame when someone leaves. Perhaps some time and a deep breath will bring Sam back this direction in the future. Cheers, The Bandit |
Arteis | 04 Jul 2014 3:15 p.m. PST |
With respect, why doesn't Sam just use the Stifle and/or Ignore? That's what they're there for. By not engaging with TMP, in effect what he is doing is Stifling and Ignoring ALL of us, for the sake of being provoked by just one member. Which is a real shame, because if there was ever a 'most-valued TMPer' table round here, Sam would have to be near the top. |
Tango01 | 04 Jul 2014 3:32 p.m. PST |
Agree with mon ami Arteis. He would be missed. Amicalement Armand |
Dye4minis | 04 Jul 2014 4:07 p.m. PST |
Oh, Boy, i can't believe I am jumping in on this one, but here goes: There are many "greats" in this hobby. No question about it! But fundamentally, what gets glossed over is that many rules claim to be historical simulations or games. There is a belief that "never shall the two ever meet". Whenever someone gets close to making that connection, they get shut down by a lot of people that knows Jack Squat about how to look at a syatem in real life and how to represent it on the table. There are just some aspects of reality that cannot be modeled on a 4x6 foot table! The trick is to model what does! I have said for years that the value sets used in "games" need to be changed. I started seeing more games appear where figure count is not the value set- the behavior of the unit does. We have progress! But we are not yet thee yet. We will only get better once we are allowed to discuss new ideas and concepts- a free flow of ideas with respect and patience for each other. Not everyone sees the same thing at an auto accident, but we all can agree that an accident did indeed happen. So let's try to keep an open mid when your read or hear of a new concept that, on the surface, flies in the face of your gaming experience. You just might discover something new and 6 months later, that light bulb of finally understanding goes off! We all do other things for a living and can stand to benefit from the collective knowledge. There are NO handful of people that has it all! I am sorry to see Sam take such conversation in this manner. He must also remember that some folks bring up issues that he might benefit from if he would only listen (a common fault of all of us- especially me!) Had the "disagreeable poster" of the last 15 years did not feel passionately about Sam's designs, why would he have kept at it for 15 years? Couldn't Sam see that someone was trying to offer some constructive criticism? (Or was it just his pride hindering his open views?) In any case, this stumble should not have happened. Public personal attacks should not be resulted to as a tactic to impose one's will or ideas. It only further divides us as a whole. We all lose something. Perhaps we sometimes we get tired of seeing vegetation when we are looking for the forest; never realizing we are IN a forest at the time? That's the way I take the referenced thread before it got ugly and communication of ideas fell on blind eyes
.and I like all of these guys! C'mon, play nice in the public forums! |
sillypoint | 04 Jul 2014 4:35 p.m. PST |
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Repiqueone | 04 Jul 2014 5:22 p.m. PST |
I completely understand and appreciate Sam's decision. He is a first rate fellow, a sharp mind, and a good historian who's company I have always enjoyed and look forward to our continuing friendship. The truth is TMP is a terrible forum for any serious, intellectual, or insightful discussion of wargame rule writing. In the past when magazines such as MWAN, the Courier, and others provided a regular EDITED and fair forum for proposals and counter-proposals, the discussion could be very informative and interesting. The price of entry into those discussions was a person taking the time and effort to write a considered response and submitting it. It was also often true that those who offered opinions had earned the privilege by actually contributing, on a regular basis, to the hobby. Even more so if they had actually ever created anything Not so on TMP, any person may rip off an ill-considered and I'll-informed tirade without any need to think about his reply. He may, in many cases, do this with complete anonymity. Armed with a hotdog in one hand, mustard on chin, a beer by the keyboard, he may say damn near anything . There is no basis to judge his knowledge or whether he has some strange axe to grind because he felt slighted at some long past convention or on some political forum. There is no way to prevent a fellow from posting over and over again the same droning worthless contentions and critique that leads nowhere. One measure of this sort of silliness is the stifle and ignore functions ( I've often thought a more telling measure would be a list of those that stifle others the most. I think it would be more telling than those who get stifled. Call it the Thin Skin list.) There is no editing, or moderation,of postings beyond language or politics, and just as Gresham's Law proved that bad money drives out good, so worthless ideas have a tendency to drive out good ideas in a system where results do not matter. I know of several top designers and rule writers who simply limit or stop their postings on TMP because it isn't worth the candle. There's nothing in it for them, and it dissipates time and energy they need on their creative projects, and in the other areas of their life. At several gatherings in the last few years rule writers that have contributed a number of key designs have commented to me about the complete lack of upside to the discussion online of design concepts and directions. Far better to share among those whose judgement and record of accomplishment promises usable critique and suggestion, and not baseless claims of what they will do when they finish their rules. This is not Bill's fault, and TMP can provide a good resource for new products, websites and other resources on all periods of history, odd factoids only tangentially related to the hobby ( thanks to Tango), and can establish long distance friendships and connections. Nor is this to discourage gamers from discussing rule ideas or the merits of rules in their opinion, but there is a proven, years long, track record that discussing wargame theory, design insights, and what wargames should do is the realm of those who have never written a single set for public consumption, and not for those have written rules for public use and critique. They have no reason to join in on a regular basis, they're too busy creating a new rule system! |
Mike Petro | 04 Jul 2014 5:25 p.m. PST |
Good! Maybe he can get Blucher out quicker instead of posting on here. |
Sparker | 04 Jul 2014 5:33 p.m. PST |
Just to repeat my post on the other thread: What Richard Clarke said! I will miss Sam's input and hope he can be prevailed upon to return. Love or hate his rules (and I hate half of 'em and love the other half – go figure!) he is undoubtedly one of the contemporary giants of the scene
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Arteis | 04 Jul 2014 6:47 p.m. PST |
@ Repiqueone: I think what you've said applies to ANY open internet forum that has a membership with a wide continuum of view-points, not just TMP. Though it probably doesn't apply so much to smaller forums with viewpoints mainly from one perspective (where, if anything, the problem is the other way round in that they become too sychophantic). |
jdginaz | 04 Jul 2014 7:28 p.m. PST |
I've only known him from his posts here but it's always struck me that he is very thin skinned and doesn't take any questioning of his ideas well at all and is quick to take offense. He also seemed to have a rather low opinion of all wargamers |
fox news tea party | 04 Jul 2014 7:36 p.m. PST |
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GamesPoet | 04 Jul 2014 8:26 p.m. PST |
I'm not convinced Sam is leaving. It looked more like a hypothetical deal to me. Sam even called it a "proposal". I don't know alot of things, but sometimes this kind of thing just happens, and not going to get all saddened by it. Life is too short. Time to go back to doing some more painting, and eventually some more gaming! : ) |
79thPA | 04 Jul 2014 8:54 p.m. PST |
Having just visited the offending thread, I am not sure why anyone would even want to try and sift through it. |
RazorMind | 04 Jul 2014 9:15 p.m. PST |
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Paint Pig | 04 Jul 2014 9:22 p.m. PST |
Same old. Is it the first time
.this year? He should be back within a month if previous dummy spits are anything to go by. Agreed jdginaz Sam is somewhat thinned skinned at the best of times and I've found, to my surprise, can be more than a little combative over seemingly benign correspondence. He really should have learned by now to accept not everyone is going to love his rules, so what? Sam, criticism is a part of the job so deal with it, though to be frank I cant find where McLaddie is actually leveling criticism of your rules. Ignore, move on and enjoy what you do. Keep writing those rules. regards dave |
passiveaggressive | 05 Jul 2014 2:25 a.m. PST |
Thats the problem with TMP. All the damn vampires. |
passiveaggressive | 05 Jul 2014 2:29 a.m. PST |
And it's a simple fact that for all the editors, TMP is a very poorly moderated forum. People get slaps, but topic control and in topic moderation guidance is non existent. |
Maddaz111 | 05 Jul 2014 2:51 a.m. PST |
I accept freedom of speech as much as the next guy, but I don't have to hear what you say if I do not want to. I'm not a great fan of Sam's work, and I think he has and will continue to be a less than stellar advocate for our hobby. However, I would hope, for all those that do enjoy his musings on here, that he would remain. And yes, if someone is goading you, or deliberately trolling you, flag it to the editor. I don't see the point of stifle
I can see the point of hey editor this person has just upset a large group of people by (
..) and getting that person dh or semi permabanned. |
Jcfrog | 05 Jul 2014 5:14 a.m. PST |
"And it's a simple fact that for all the editors, TMP is a very poorly moderated forum. People get slaps, but topic control and in topic moderation guidance is non existent." Freedom? you want the Stasi here? maybe look into Berlin address book Markus Wolf might still be alive. |
fox news tea party | 05 Jul 2014 7:06 a.m. PST |
Freedom isn't free. Moderation here on TMP would go a long way to making this a better place, by increasing the muzzling of the bullies and thugs who frequent posts like this. Stifling and Ignoring only goes so far. A quality moderator can take out the trash and keep the premises clean. |
Trajanus | 05 Jul 2014 9:22 a.m. PST |
I was going to post on this topic, then I decided I wouldn't. |
Cardinal Ximenez | 05 Jul 2014 9:45 a.m. PST |
I thought about not posting and then went and did it anyway. I'll never learn. Thank you Trajanus for slapping me back to reality. DM |
doc mcb | 05 Jul 2014 9:55 a.m. PST |
I'm sorry Sam is leaving. We've clashed more often than we've agreed, but that's what forums are for; pretty boring if everyone agrees with me, and I've gotten a lot of helpful criticism on occasion -- a time or two from Sam. It IS possible to have long and thoughtful and respectful debates on contentious topics. Here's a great example of one and a follow-up: TMP link TMP link I do note, however, that many of the best posters on those two threads are dormant or departed. So maybe Gresham's law does apply. That is sad if true. |
Gray Bear | 05 Jul 2014 10:53 a.m. PST |
Well said Paint Pig and jdginaz. |
TelesticWarrior | 05 Jul 2014 11:38 a.m. PST |
Although I hardly ever agree with Sam on the Napoleonic threads I count him as a highly valued member of the forum and I hope he decides to come back. For what it is worth my opinion is that Bill did not bait, bully or harass Sam, and some of the comments here are totally exaggerated. If anything it was Bill that was goaded from quite early on in the thread with some very condescending (and typically erroneous) remarks from Wiznard and Otto. It was no surprise that the thread went down hill after that. I dont often agree with Bill either, but why anyone is blaming him for what happened here is beyond me. The guy just wanted to do some research for heavens sake, and his thread was hi-jacked by delusional goons that think theyre at the centre of the universe. |
TelesticWarrior | 05 Jul 2014 11:42 a.m. PST |
In regards to the stifle, I stand by my view that it solves nothing and is actually counter-productive. The stifler will find that his posts are free to be de-constructed at leisure by his opponent, whilst the stifler remains ignorant of what is going on. Either that or they have to run around like a wet hen opening and closing a series of gray boxes. Hardly a worthwhile use of somebodies time. People like Sam do not stifle people simply because they are disagreed with, and for that he deserves credit. |
Sergeant Paper | 05 Jul 2014 12:29 p.m. PST |
You reason incorrectly, TW. The stiflee might indeed be deconstructing the stifler's posts, but that isn't at all visible to the stifler, that is, they WON't find it out at all, unless they unstifle the poster that they stifled. And I seriously doubt that most posters who stifle an individual then proceed to go back and unstifle them to see what they said. Because the whole point of the stifle is to stop seeing the stiflee's posts. |
Repiqueone | 05 Jul 2014 2:27 p.m. PST |
My own feeling, which Bill could certify, is that 95%'of stifles and ignores come from the same 5-10% of thin-skinned TMP members and their friends. I really would like to see a ranking of stiflers along with a list of stifles. It would make both sets of data more revealing. There would also be a social transparency as to who takes umbrage. I suspect very few. How about it Bill? You don't have to indicate who a person stifles just how many times they have done so. |
Editor in Chief Bill | 05 Jul 2014 5:38 p.m. PST |
And it's a simple fact that for all the editors, TMP is a very poorly moderated forum. People get slaps, but topic control and in topic moderation guidance is non existent. Personally, I don't believe in heavy moderation of forums. The rules are posted, you're encouraged to know what they are, and breaking the rules leads to a standard set of penalties. Topic control? You mean, you want us to force the discussion to stay on topic? Really? Do you realize how many man-hours that would take? And yes, I hope Sam comes back, both as a member and as an advertiser! |
Repiqueone | 05 Jul 2014 6:57 p.m. PST |
I'm sure if we all clap our hands together, and repeat his name over and over, we can bring him back. Shall we start? |
Ottoathome | 05 Jul 2014 7:08 p.m. PST |
My only question on this is why was the link to one of my threads given than to McLaddie's The link given, if you read it, it fully states my own position and disagreements with Sam (so that my remarks may be taken in context, and then goes on to say quite a few nice things about him and his games which ARE true, even though I may not like them, and which was written in support of Sam against his detractors, and in support of a post he had written. I really in the post was defending Sam against others. The falling out between Sam and I goes back LONG before TMP when he and I were in the same gaming group together and there were one too many infelicitous occurrances, none of which I have ever mentioned on TMP. Otto |