"Use of FG42 for fallschirmjagers?" Topic

Hello,

I have done a few hours research on the net and haven't found so much agreed info on the net about the use of the FG42 in a squad of fallschirmjagers.

The general feeling is that there would be one per squad.
Some sources suggest it would be instead of an MG34/42 in the squad.

What do you say? How many FG42 should I put in my squad if I want to use them, would it come in place of one MG34/42??

thanks for the input

I would limit inclusion of the FG42 based on production numbers (andyoneill I think described that well on a previous Fallshirmjäger topic). I would tend to include qty 0-1 FG42 in addition to, not instead of, qty 0-1 MG34/42 being available. No hard sources for that, just the way I would play it based on the anecdotal sources.

AFAIK FG42 was originally intended to become the standard weapon for the whole squad (thus replacing rifles, SMGs and MGs). It probably didn't fully fill these expectations (heavy recoil on full auto and small magazine made it an insufficient replacement for the squad MG), and anyway by the time it came into service the big drops of FG were things of the past.

Considering that the production numbers were low (around 10 000 pieces), I would presume that that most squads would be lucky to have one or two of those (in addition to their standard MG), though there _might_ have been some rare units that would be armed primarily with them. Other units might have never seen them.

Griefbringer

I was part of a long argument about this on the Command Decision mailing list years ago. Luckily, we got it settled when one of my old high school buddies told me about an ex-Falschirmjager sergeant he was interviewing.

Said sergeant confirmed 0-1 FG42s in a squad, when they could get them. It did not replace the squad MG. FJ squads are often credited with a second MG, this was not the FG42, but another MG. Usually a few guys with SMGs, 0-1 with a G43 semi-auto rifle.

He also stated that the FJ preferred the MG34 to the MG42, as it didn't burn through ammo as quickly and was just as effective. This makes sense to me, since every picture of FJ seems to show them carrying as much ammo as possible.

The FG42 was never intended to replace the MG34/42 and was not done as such. I'm at work right now but I can send you some references when I get home. It was a first crack at a paratrooper "assalt rifle".

Los

My recent reading confirms that as well.

I found an excellent Russian site that catalogs all these WW2 weapons. Unfortunately I forgot to bookmark it, and now can not find it again.

Later,
Markus

The FG was designed, among other things, after the bad experiences with drop containers. Some troops in Crete and other places had to fight with just a pistol and a few grenades.

Dropping troops with an FG was one of the resulting ideas. Unfortunately they weren't sure how to implement it. Some believed that only a few men should carry one and the rest still rely on drop containers, while others preferred to see a switch to the FG.

Patrick: as far as I know, the problem with the containers was caused by the particular FSJ landing style, which made it dangerous for the jumper to be carrying a rifle when landing. I don't think that FG42 would have been any easier to handle with that landing style than Kar98, rather the whole landing style and parachuting equipment might have needed some redesign.

At least according to the Osprey volume on them, FSJ had a rather personal jumping and landing technique (due to the limitations of their parachute equipment), that caused some problems compared to US/UK paras.

Griefbringer

I would echo the sentiments of what has been stated. Add an FG-42 into a squad, but don't replace the regular MG. Also, I would add that the FG-42 is only really appropriate for Normandy and Italy. From my findings, the FG-42's were used in Normandy and during the retreat across France. A lot were lost in the process and then after being refitted for the Ardennes, the STG-44 was issued sort of in its place. Not that the FG-42 disappeared of course, but from what I have read, it only saw any large action in Normandy and Italy.

Now, the $100 queastion is what is the squad composition of a late war FJ squad.

I asked earlier and didn't really get any solid answers. Bayonet strength lists the squad as per a regular Grenadier squad of late war with 9 men (1 MG), but that the FJ add a second MG team of 2 men, making an 11 man squad. I just thought that was a bit odd of a formation, but I guess no less odd than a 9 man squad. Maybe I just don't like odd numbers...

anyone know for sure?

From Phoenix Command which does in fact mirror what I have in an official source at home:

1 x Squad Leader (MP 40)

1 x Assistant Squad Leader (MP 40)

2 x Sniper (or marksman) (Gew 33/40 or Kar 98)

2 x Machine Gunners (MG 34)

5 x Riflemen (FG 42 or Kar 98)

1 x Rifleman (FG 42 or Kar 98 with Panzerfaust)

Total of 12 men. I'll look for the official reference tonight.

For the squad composition, first hand accounts is always the best!...

From the PC game combat mission (secondary data obviously), they say:

Composition of Fallschirmjager squads:

July 43 Feb 45

12 men: 5 K98, 4 MP40, 2MG 42/34

March 45 - May 45

11 men: 5 K98, 2 MP44, 2 MP40, 2 MG 42
(K98 might be replaced by up to 4xMP44)

According to the answers of the thread, for Normandy and Italy fights, I may replace 1xK98 by 1xFG42

It's kind of odds there isn't so much hard data on such popular troops...

Thank you for the answers, IMHO the above squad compositions and the 0-1 FG42 replacement might give something reasonable to model. I hope you agree.

cheers

Excellent! That should answer both of our questions. Thanks for everyoes help!

I kind of suspected that their squad composition was much like a Panzgren squad (2 MG's).

That 11 man squad looks like it was only for the very last months of the war, so I probrably won't be using it as I do mostly Italy (some Normandy) with my FJ.

Carrying a weapon is very dangerous to any paratrooper. German parachutes and techniques were awful. Even Luftwaffe pilots had better chutes.

They did consider the FG as a kind of stopgap measure between drop containers and leaving your men without any real weapons. So one man in each squad would be dropped with an FG, while the rest was dropped by container.

But since the Fuhrer forbade further airdrops, the whole discussion became a moot point.

The FG would eventually fase out other weapons (the bipod , scope etc) are indications that they wanted a kind of universal weapon to replace all others.

"So one man in each squad would be dropped with an FG, while the rest was dropped by container."

Hi Patrick, it sounds indeed very dangerous. How many paratroopers would they fit in a container?

;-)

I did actually laugh out loud over that one, H101.

An interview with a late war Paratrooper said he never saw an FG42, Mp44, G43 etc. All his squad ever saw was K98 and the odd MP40.

There is a lot of myths about the the more glam weapons used by the Germans, a quick look at the photos of the surrendered weapons shows that K98s are by far the most prolific. In most photos I have seen they are the only weapons captured.

The FG was discontinued because it was too expensive in time and material, it never got close to its production quota. The second model (which had no official altered model number) was simplified, but it to was too expensive to produce.

So if you want to do a realistic squad of FJ, have no FG42 for most of the squads, then have one squad with one.

Didn't the German paratroops not even have a steering facility on the parachute? A terrible disadvantage when dropping over Crete!

The risers from the harness joined together in a single link to the rigging lines above and behind the jumpers head. There was no way a FJ jumper could turn into the wind let alone steer the thing. Thats why they couldn't carry weapons during the drop and wore knee pads for protection on landing.

Squad size 12 or 11?? Surely academic.

IMHO Most squads would be operating with field strength of at 8 or 9 max and Pln HQ one attached weapons team (spare MG42 or Panzerschreck) and Pln i/c possiblely runner only.

So 27 -31 but, probably with typical firepower of

Squad 2 x MG (34/42) 1-3 MP40 rest Kar98 (one with GL?) and possible subsitute 0-1 FG42 and 0-1 G43 also swap MP40 for 43/44 one per 6 months from Jan 44 on (ie can have three in 45). The MG #2s still often without personal weapon other than Pistol and grenades. Give Pln i'c anything you like, he shouldn't be firing much anyway.

Smaller but no real drop in volume of fire.

Foul

Actually there is a twenties or thirties drawing of British troops being para-dropped in a kind of armoured container that would become a bulletproof pillbox once "safely" on the ground.

Patrick, that would be a neat concept for a scifi game! Bunkers full of shock troops dropped from the orbit!

Griefbringer

Also on same theme Russiaon actually tried a metal single para container mounted on wheels ( like old pram) but was droped at low altitude WITHOUT Parachute. With political priosoners?? or men on 'charge'.

Mind you no 'chute their not paras are they? JUST air-landing troops.

Oh boy stuff that for a job.

Foul

I found an email a friend of mine sent me after interviewing an FJ. I had requested him to ask after squad-level weapons:

"Had that lengthy conversation with the "primary" source on Th. He was very helpful and provided some unique insight into organization and especially weapons issue and usage detail. A very interesting conversation. I have heard Fjgs described as very tough and "pugnacious". This vet still reeked of both of those attributes.

Here we go - my research has determined the following:
1. A standard Fjg Co.= 3 Inf. Platoons, a heavy weapons Platoon and a HQ section.
2. A standard Fjg Platoon=12 (sic) squads w/12 men p/squad.
3. A squad (circa '43-'44) contained 2 LMGs and a 3:1 ratio of SMG/STG:Rifles. All Fjgs had pistols.

*LMGs are MG34 or MG42. The MG42 becomes more available as time goes on but for various reasons never exceeds 50-60% issue in Fjg Units. The MG15 may still be around but in negligible quantities.

*SMG/STGs consist of 90% MP38/40 and 10% STG in '43. This changes in '44 when the ratio becomes closer to 2:1 MP38/40:STG. The FG42 should properly fall within this STG category not the LMG category at a ratio of 6 p/Platoon. The FG42 never was intended to take the place of the MG34/42. The FG42 was a more robust STG firing a full powered round. Very short range weapon (and uncontrollable)on full auto. Something more akin to the M-14-but heavier and less accurate. Not comparable to the Bren or BAR. Not at all comparable to the aforementioned LMGs. Sprinkle in a few Beretta MPs obtained during their southern vacations.

*Rifles consist of K98ks, G41s and G/K43s. In '43 the ratio would be 3:1 K98k:G41 and G43 with the G41 more prevalant than the G43. In early '44 the ratio would be 2:1 (late '44 1:1) K98k:G/K43 and G41 with the G41 steadily becoming more obscure.

*Optically equipped Rifles were present in basically 3 forms: K98k w/ZF41(1.5X), K98k w/ZF39-4X and G/K43 w/ZF4-4X. The ZF41 was not a true sniping weapon. It had 1.5X optics and was provided to "good shots" at a rate of 4 p/Platoon in '43 and '44. The ZF4 was available during '43 and '44 at the same rate and under generally the same conditions as the ZF41. The various configurations of the ZF39 were also given to some "good shots" but were cherished by the trained snipers. Trained snipers were most abundant in '43-'44. They operated out of Bn. or Rgt. HQ where they were assigned as needed. I have heard figures from 20-22 p/Bn. The figure of 22 was quoted from a sniper officer in a Gbj unit. These units by there very nature were full of sniper/hunter talent and early on had developed the best sniper schools and training systems. This would mean 5 trained snipers p/Co. plus another 10-12 "good shots" w/optically equipped weapons p/Platoon. According to the "source" this was about right on paper or right out of rest and refit. However once the shooting started the losses (in men and equipment) especially in the "good shot" group were very high. The trained snipers were better at their craft and similar to SF there training kept them alive a bit longer even thought hey got dirtier jobs.

*Pistols were issued to everyone very early on. According to the "source" once they learned their primary weapons would be dropped in canisters separately they all got sidearms. He said that he never knew anyone who didn’t have one and in some cases a backup. Early on P-08 and later P-38. There certainly would be an assortment of other types liberated during their travels-Browning HPs, Astras, etc.

The Fjgs were always very well equipped and as you can see armed to the teeth. They also were highly motivated, very well trained and would have been 1 higher rank outside of their organization. The "source" indicated that this applies early and late. Just because they were no longer jump qualifying recruits doesn’t mean their standards were not rigorous for the time. A significant comment from one of the old timers who, as a group, generally criticize the new recruits. Same rules apply to the W-SS. Look at the performance of Hohenstauffen, Frundsburg and HJ. It would appear that any non-elite unit that encountered Fjgs in a 1:1 situation would be slaughtered. "

Hope this helps

Elhiem wrote..
("An interview with a late war Paratrooper said he never saw an FG42, Mp44, G43 etc. All his squad ever saw was K98 and the odd MP40.
There is a lot of myths about the the more glam weapons used by the Germans, a quick look at the photos of the surrendered weapons shows that K98s are by far the most prolific. In most photos I have seen they are the only weapons captured.")

Beg to differ Elheim...

On April 6, 1944, Hitler issued the following decree: Ê
a) The former MG42 is to retain the same designation
b) The former self-loading rifle, known as the Gewehr 43, shall receive the designation Karabiner 43 (K43).
c) The former new MP, known as the MP43, shall receive the designation MP44.
In July 1944 at a meeting of the various army heads about the Eastern Front, the universal answer to "what do you need" was "more of the new rifles".
This caused some confusion, but once Hitler realized what was going on he agreed to allow its full production. Seeing the possibility of a propaganda win, the rifle was again renamed as the StG44, to highlight the new class of weapon it represented, literally "assault rifle, model 1944", thereby introducing the term.
By the end of the war, some 425,977 StG44 variants of all types were produced. The assault rifle proved an invaluable weapon, especially on the Eastern front, where it was first deployed. A properly trained soldier with an StG44 had a greatly improved tactical repertoire, in that he could effectively engage targets at long range across open terrain, or in close range urban fighting, as well as provide cover fire in all situations in a machine gun role.

Hey, I only quote a FJ who served during the Market Garden campaign.

Regarding the availability of the Stg's and FG's you only have to look at production numbers issued compared to K98's issued.

but you have to compare number of guys carrying k98s versus number of guys who were in the units that would get the FG42s issued to them. every Fritz Kraut got a k98, after all, but there were a lot fewer FJ around to give FG42s.

"Patrick, that would be a neat concept for a scifi game! Bunkers full of shock troops dropped from the orbit!"

Yeah, its called Starship troopers and it has been done ..so to speak.

Mind you no 'chute their not paras are they? JUST air-landing troops.

Or air-landing bouncers.

There were around 7000 fg42 made in total.
First thing to bear in mind is that means VERY FEW.

The original idea was they were a sort of assault rifle.
Now it's kind of "obvious" in 20:20 hindsight that wasn't going to work with full power ammo. Nobody got in a time machine and told em though.
So you might also think of em as an experiment never quite worked.
Rather like the BAR in a number of ways and in fact that's how I rate them.
Worse than a Bren but a bit better than a rifle.

Mostly rare.
So there would be units which didn't have any or hardly any.
One or two units got a disproportionately large number of them and so you could see a couple in a squad.
They came out before the two mg34 per squad was adopted so you could get units where sections had one mg34 + one fg42 and someone decided for a while that was their two MGs allocation sorted.
There again you could get whatever.

Remember that the FJ were considered elite and got some nice toys to play with. They had more leeway on what they could take and hence differed more from unit to unit than say standard infantry would.
Just like in allied paras – when the individuals liked a particular weapon they tended to get that weapon.
How one can like the FG42 is beyond me but some people say they like the BAR and some people like being whipped – takes all kinds.

Look at the numbers; 7000 FG42 produced, about 1000 squads of FJ infantry, assault engineers and recon troops, 3 years of war. Maybe 2 per full strength squad (12 men), maybe 1 per reduced squad.

I use 2 per 7 man reduced squad with 1 MG42 and 1 NCO with MP40, so 3 Kar98K riflemen (one with grenade launcher). This is a fair balance!

Joe Balkoski's 'Beyond the Beachhead' TOE section gives a squad from the 1st platoon, 1st company, 9th parachute regiment, 3rd fallschirmjaeger division as being:

12 men, 5xrifles, 3xsmg's and 2xlmgs. (And as Foul Ole Ron says, surely academic)

As AONeill says, FG42's used full charge ammunition (for easier ammo supply) like their closest equivalent, the BAR. So in gaming terms I rate them together.

If a squad was lucky enough to get them, I would replace one or two of the rifles with the FG42

"Regarding the availability of the Stg's and FG's you only have to look at production numbers issued compared to K98's issued."
But that also has to take into account the time over which each weapon was available.

For example: According to Danny Parker's Battle of the Bulge book (usually reliable) The MP44 was the most commonly carried weapon during that particular campaign

Also if its 7000 in the entire war, they werent all in service at the same time, not too mention ones lost, destroyed or captured.

Its a nice gun, but too prevalent in wargamers armies.

I know…

I have loads in my FJ units… ;-)

When you're dividing 7000 by units by years by attrition…
Bear in mind that some units got a bigger bunch.
Stretching my memory here but iirc:
Specifically in NWE 1944 and fighting US.
Which is a bit weird but maybe someone found a warehouse of them one day.

So you talk to some uS and DK vets and they tell you one or two a squad.
Talk to some other vets and they say they never saw one.
Which is of course the problem with talking to a single veteran. Fascinating as it is, they have the mushroom-view of things. There's a lot of $h*t went on way over their heads.

There were more rottkapchen manufactured if you believe some sources.
Guided missiles don't exactly get frequent mentions in combat reports.

I almost wonder then, considering the weapon was meant for combat drops, how many were part of Von Der Heydte's diversion during the Battle of the Bulge. By rights, if it were meant to be a covering weapon until the cannister could be found, then his force should be the model of how the FG42's were meant to be distributed.
Larry

I think by the Battle of the Bulge, the FG42 was largely replaced in production by the STG44.

Interestingly, I found 8 photos of Von Der Heydte's men armed in the Bugle during the battle. Most carry pistols and Kar98Ks. Two photos show 2 men with M1 Carbines. One photos shows a officer with M1 Carbine and a US army Carbine bandolier!

The famous Bulge pic of Fshjgr on the rear deck of tiger 222 has them armed with about everything APART from FG42's. out of 6 men 5 are armed with MG42, Gew43,MP40, StG44 and a markII sten gun.

I would suggest that by Dec 44 the only FJ carrying the weapon would be the ones guarding Goring's various estates and the FJ Lehr Battalion, maybe the 1st FJ Division guys would have some as well.