"Why did Delta" Topic

Switch to Glock 22s?

So delta has been using the 1911 .45 forever, first the regular A1 then later better clones like Para ordinace, Kimber ect or other colts.

Now they use G22.

I don't get it, it's a .40 version of Glock 17, why the down grade? I know you can get .357 sig barrles for the G22, but they apear to use .40?

The .40 has no real advantages over the .45 except more bullets in the mag… If they did use the 357 sig version I could kinda get it, more bullets in the mag, and a slightly better chance at getting through soft bodyarmor.

but .40? and a GLOCK!

Glocks do have a whole lot of development behind them.

While *I* don't like them, they are a lot of people's firearm of choice. You can load .40S&W to .45ACP bullet weights and energy, and you go from 8 rounds to 18+ rounds in the magazine.

They're also about half the cost of a 1911 frame at the MOST expensive for the Glocks and cheapest 1911.

Politics did it.

The .45 has always been a manstopper even more then weapons that produce as much or more energry. The 357 sig has more energry then the .45, but still not does not have the knock down effect of a .45 on unarmord targets.

And I doubt money is big factor for delta, there is not that many operators in delta, and the price of handguns for them must be miniscule compeard to money spent on main weapons, traning, high tech gear ect.

The sig is also quite expencive, yet SEAL uses it.

Force Recon still uses .45s even just upgraded from the old MEU first with Kimber in 2003 then Colt Rail Gun in 2012

If you can't hit something with 8 rounds, 18 isn't going to help you

Yes or the old joke about 9mm.

Why spend 15 rounds of 9mm to stop someone when 1 of .45 is enough.

A veteran of the Pacific theater said it not only stopped them, but would blow them back out of the foxhole.

Force is applied as an equal and opposite reaction, so if the round will knock somebody down it will also knock down the shooter, movies aside. I think that the reaction of someone being shot is similiar to being stuck with a pin- you jump away from what is hurting you.

Yes, knock down force is not actualy knocking some one on the back, it's more like turning of the lights, it's causes shock and massive quick dropp in bloodpressure, basicly turning you off, dons't mean you are dead, just "turned off"

Normaly it means you fall to the ground like a sack of potatoes.

But also remember when you fire you are ready for it, normaly you have two feet on the ground, balansing you. When you get shot, you might be running, you might be standing at an odd angle, this will make it seem like you "fly on your back"

Also veterans and soldiers like to ramp it up to 11. So things get more extreme.

But yes the .45 is a manstopper, short of going into magnum calbiers it is the best at stopping people, and since magunm rounds are kinda not very combat friendly, the .45 has been and still is the best combat round out there.

Really?

When you combine hydrostatic shock, kinetic energy, penetrative effect and dumping of momentum…to name a few… .45 is the best at all of them?

And it disturbs your aim so little you can land a second accurate shot as a hammer not a double tap???

I wound think a Delta operator could use whatever firearm they wanted to use. Are they required to used standardized equipment? Seems to go against the concept of special operations.

Yes, the only "normal" pistol round with more enegry is the .357 and while it does have more peneration power(really the only pistol round that has any effect on soft bodyarmor)

9mm, is a fine round tho I would put 3-4 rounds in the guy minimum, and seems to be quite bad at stopping people on drugs like Meth and PCP.

The .40 has more stopping power then 9mm, but more recoil and more pressure in the gun, leading to more recoil and wear in the gun. .38 is well not used by combat troops.

.44 magnum and .357 magnum are powerfull but not really usefull for combat.

And those are the handgun rounds rounds, if you exclude the Russian ones, but those are all more or less 9mmish.

The .45 got low recoil for the size of the bullet(I feel it got more but softer recoil then 9mm) (except in Glock 21, the recoil in a glock .45 is horrible.

The .45 has low pressure, so less flash, less wear on the gun. All .45 are sub sonic so no need for subsonic(less powerfull ammo) when using silencers.

It sucks at penetration(so no chance of penetrating kevlar) on the other hand no other pistol round penetrates kevlar either, and the enegry and size of the .45 means you have a bigger chance stunning the target and take a headshot for second or 3rd shot. Also lots of enegry means bigger bruse under the kevlar, and a bigger chance of breaking ribs.

Also becaue it dosn't overpenerate all energy is placed in the body. So more effective. And since it dosn't over penetrate(to the same degree as other pistol rounds) less chance of collateral damage.

It comes down to knockdown power vs. mag capacity … I much preferred my .45 to the 9mm we were issued later. With 9mm we were trained to "double tap" as well … Of course the bottomline is the firer's ability to hit the target regardless …

You should "double tap" with any weapon when it's semi auto, be it 9mm, .40 .45 or rifles like 5.56 or 7.62(in close quarter)

Yes, and in reality you usually put more than one round into a "target". But with a Double Tap, we were told to put the rounds very close together in a quick kill area. Head, heart, etc. … However, in a firefight rounds have tendency to go everywhere … the first round on the target usually being the most accurate …

For all I know, I wouldn't mess with a Delta operator no matter whether he packs a .40, a .45, a 9mm – or a toothpick! ;-)

What calibre toothpick, and is it scented?

From my very basic first and second-hand knowledge of SF soldiers, if ammo conservation and hostages are not a priority, they will fire as many rounds, in as little time as possible, to drop the target, and then some more to make sure.

Good comments, I also am and always have been an old school .45 guy and carry a full size 1911, when I carry.

Otto there is a reason for keeping weapon types the same that are even more important in SOF, that is ammo and magazine compatability. In a fire fight if I have shot all my ammo you can toss me a mag and we can keep the fire going. Although the pistol is not the normal weapon of choice for an extended firefight.

My first sergeant when I was a company commander (he came from delta) always said that you use a pistol as last defence or to be able to get to your rifle.

Saying that soldiers don't need more than 8 rounds in a pistol is like saying they could replace their assault rifles with pump shotguns. Home defence is not the same as a battlefield.

Perhaps they're not supposed to be depending on their pistols to do the job?

My understanding is that the unit has been using various Glocks for more than ten years including 17s and 19s in nine millimetre and 22s, 23s and 27s in .40.

The .45 issue is two-fold and more around the platform than the round as I understand it; one is that operators found specifically in Iraq that they were experiencing environmental stoppages from sand in their finely tuned 1911 STIs.

For a unit that has an operational tempo like them (multiple ops in a single night not uncommon), having pistols go down whilst deployed is an obvious issue. Their 1911s required a lot of armourer time to keep in the fight. This issue didn't exist with the Glocks.

Number two was that when an operator shoots someone he is not firing a controlled pair as Milites above says, he is firing until the guy goes down and until he stops moving- remember the type of opposition these guys are facing. Even the extended 1911 magazines were running dry very quickly so there was an operational need for a higher capacity sidearm.

I understand they even trialled a .40 STI in Iraq with high capacity magazines but ran into issues with magazine related feed problems. The G22 with extended magazines- including the 22 rounder- performed much more reliably than the 1911 platforms with the EFMJ round they use(d). Out of interest, the G22 magazines were supplied to the unit in Flat Dark Earth to visually distinguish the .40s from the black mags of the 17s and 19s.

Despite popular fiction, operators aren't using their pistols much operationally- their primary is their 416, the sidearm is only there if their primary goes down. Even in hostage rescue scenarios and in units like Delta that positively pride themselves on their pistol work, they are using short barrel carbines and MP7s- no one's leading with a pistol. It's a last ditch weapon but when it's used it needs to function flawlessly and it needs to hold enough rounds to be able to drop the target(s) and get them out of the fight as quickly as possible.

Can't we just ask Delta Force? They are on Facebook.

"If you can't hit something with 8 rounds, 18 isn't going to help you"

if you shoot as well as Delta operators do it means 10 more dead bad guys before reloading . i think that helps

I again, agree with the COL. When I do carry I pack a Colt Commander w/Speer Hollow Points. [Which as a PI is rare as opposed to in the movies !] And my SGM said something similar, that generally a pistol was a last resort and don't plan on hitting anything longer than a few yards. Being shot at is different than being on a range … We were on the range when he said it !

Mmmh, maybe to make a point… The whole world will know that if you find a dead body with a .40s&w in it, who has done this job?

I think reliability and capacity are obvious winners over stopping power when you're talking about a weapon of last resort.
You don't really expect or want to use it.
If you are going to be using it you want the thing to definitely work.

Yeah, I agree that a pistol is the weapon of ultimate last resort, that needs to go bang when you tell it to!

I know that the Glock 17 is one of the most reliable pistol designs out there. I still don't like it, but I'm not going to lie about the reliability. And having everyone use the same magazines is a basic thing.

I didn't realize that Delta was using STIs, but I can't say I'm surprised that they experienced issues with them in the desert. STIs are competition pistols, with close tolerances. Get a bit of sand in the wrong place and you need to clean the beast NOW to get it working again. Doesn't stop me from wanting a matched trio of them when I start shooting competitively (two 6" barrels for competition, one 4" barrel for carry with a tungsten guide rod for the same balance as the competition pistols). But I thought you could get STIs in double-stack, with 14+ rounds of .45ACP in them… :headscratch:

I think I missed that in my post- they did run STI high capacity .45s but were encountering similar feed problems as I noted with the double stack STI .40 mags they trialled, along with the 'environmental' issues with the 1911 platform itself in that particular theatre. 14 rounds of any calibre aren't going to help if you have a stoppage.

rounds of any calibre aren't going to help if you have a stoppage.

True enough.

I'm kinda surprised that the 1911 jamming up in the desert would be news, though. It's not like the beast hasn't been used all over the world for the last 75 years…

Guess it's those STI tolerances.