"How many flags in a French regiment?" Topic

Is there only one eagle and regimental flag per French regiment or did each battalion carry one?

How do others model French units with 2 or 3 battalions?

Xenophon:

Officially, 1808 or so onwards, just the 1st battalion had the eagle and the other battalions carried fanions varying in color (red, white, green or violet, not necessarily in that order). It is recorded some regiments retained their eagles and did not turn them in. Good luck finding out specifically which ones or if battalions had specially made eagles as replacements.

I believe and may be wrong

1 eagle for the whole regiment for line infantry (held by the 1st battalion) and then battalion fanions for the rest.

In 1804 there was one Eagle per battalion, but from 1812 there was only one Eagle per Regiment, carried by the 1st battalion, with the other battalions carrying Fanions, white for 2nd Bn, red for 3rd Bn, blue for 4th Bn. When later in the wars some regiments formed 5th and 6th Bns, their fanions were green and yellow respectively. The Fanions were supposed to be plain, but (having spent 30 years in the Army myself) I am sure that each battalion would have inscribed theirs with something like "4th Regiment 2nd Battaillon" or similar, and that is how I portray mine.

Rod

Until 1808, each battalion carried an Eagle and a standard, although legere regiments were ordered to return theirs in September 1806 (guess how well obeyed that order was!).

In 1808 it was decreed that only one eagle and standard was to be carried per regiment by the 1st battalion. Again, this was not exactly obeyed throughout the army! The other battalions carried fanions which were not supposed to be decorated (guess what!).

The 1812 Bardin reforms introduced new, standardised, undecorated fanions as follows:

2nd Battalion: white
3rd Battalion: red
4th Battalion: blue
5th Battalion: green
6th Battalion: yellow
7th Battalion: violet
8th Battalion: sky blue

Again, these were supposed to be undecorated, but……

Jurgen

Flecktarn,

Yes, you are correct. I wasn't able to remember the order of the colors for fanions.

Does anyone know of any instances where a regiment might turn in its excess eagles, but keep the flags to use instead of fanions?

Hmmmm ….

"De la garde de l'aigle
La garde de l'aigle d'un régiment est formée d'un officier qui la porte, de deux anciens militaires, dites deuxième et troisième porte-aigles, et des six fourriers du deuxième bataillon.
Elle est en place sur trois rangs, à la gauche de la deuxième section du troisième peloton du deuxième bataillon, et elle en fait partie.
Le premier rang de cette garde est composé. De l'officier, premier porte-aigle, et des deuxièmes et troisième porte aigles, placés, le deuxième à sa droite et le troisième à sa gauche.
Les deux autres rangs sont formés chacun de trois fourriers. Ceux-ci portent l'arme dans le bras droit. On place de préférence au deuxième rang de la garde de l'aigle, les trois fourriers qui ont le plus régularité et de perfection, tant pour la position sous les armes, que pour la marche."

Manuel des sous-officiers d'infanterie, 1811
page 6

- Sasha

Apparently that there French means:
"Confinement eagle eagle custody of a regiment is formed of an officer the door, two former soldiers, said second and third carriers eagles, and six of the quartermasters second battalion. It is up in three rows to the left of the second section of the third platoon of the second battalion, and it is part.'s senior guard is this compound. From the officer first door eagle, and second and third eagles door, placed second on his right and one to his left. The other two rows are each formed three quartermasters. These carry the weapon in his right arm. preferably placed at second in the custody of the eagle, three sergeants who have more regularity and perfection, both in position under arms for walking"…… says the internet….. <cough>

Sorry, sorry, sorry.
At least I have been remembering to translate the Russian stuff.

On the guard for the eagle
The guard of the egle of a regiment is formed of one officer who carries it [the eagle], of two veterans called the 2nd and 3rd eagle-bearers, and of the 6 quartermaster corporals of the 2nd battalion.
It [the guard] is formed in 3 ranks, to the left of the 2nd section of the 3rd platoon of the 2nd battalion, of which it [the guard] forms a part.
The 1st rank of this guard is composed of the officer, the 1st eagle-bearer, and of the 2nd and 3rd eagle-bearers, the 2nd to the right and the 3rd to the left.
The two other ranks are formed each of 3 guartermaster corporals. These carry their arms on the right side.
By preference, one places in the 2nd rank of the guard of the eagle the 3 quartmaster corporals who have the best regularity and perfection, both in their bearing when under arms and when marching.

Note on translation : The neutral pronoun "it" is used above. In French the pronoun has gender, making it clear without the notes in brackets exactly to which antecedent the pronouns refer.

"And I said 'do you speaka my language?' He just smiled and gave me a vegamite sandwich."
:-)

- Sasha

Lol – thanks Sasha

Roman

Dear Sasha,

You are absolutely correct. From 1808 to 1811 this was the case. Even the 1er bataillon had a fanion tactique. At the end of the day, or in garrison l'Aigle and Drapeau was returned back to the 1er bataillon.

Of course this took some time to be implemented and some 2nd and 3rd battalions still had their colours in the field as late as 1811.

Quite often it is thought that the senior chef de bataillon was with the 1er battalion, actually the senior chef de bataillon was with the 2eme bataillon, and the youngest was with the 1er bataillon.

With the Decret de 25 Decembre 1811, which became L'Ordre Du Jour de 12 Fevrier en 1812. There was no 1er fanion tactique. This was due to Napoleon adding a Major en Second to the fractionated Regiment.

Each fanion tactique was to have a Garde du Fanion just like the Garde du Drapeau. and le Garde-Aigle was with the 1er bataillon.

When the fanion tactique was not in use, they were given to l'Adjudant.

Each battalion also had 3 fanions de campement to aline the battalion in camp, and l'Adjudant was in charge of them as well.

Best Regards,
Art

So how do these examples fit in?

BTW Sasha. I appreciated the Men at Work reference but a slight modification on the spelling of vegemite:

G'Day Ochoin,

If the question is directed towards me…I do not understand your question…

Best Regards,
Art

Regardless of the historical accuracy of flags and eagles carried, all my battalions turn out with colors and eagles if they're French. Includes my cavalry. Courtesy of GMB.

For my Frankfurt battalion, they have a conjectural flag made by Flagdude. For me, its the look of the thing

In the Peninsula War in case I remeber correclty in about 1813 there was only one eagle per brigade, also in Russia 1812 only 5 eagles were carried by the Imperial Guard and after 1812 the eagle should be with the biggest nummber of battalions of a regiment – that makes the topic a bit more complex.

About the fanions de encampment – weren't those who carried them called challoneurs? I am suprised to see that there were 3 per bataillon, I was always under the impression that only the elite companies did carry those?

Ochoin,

Those you have found for the 2e de ligne are just one of quite a few "non-standard" fanions that appear to have been in use.

Some known or suspected "non-standard" fanions de bataillon :

Discussion in French : link

link
Discussion in English : link

Bardin regulation fanions

Some possible guard fanions

There are likely many more (this post is just a few results from a google image search in French).

- Sasha

This answer may already be up there somewhere, but for Mserafin, the Eagle's flag should not have been 'reused' as the citation on it described how the Eagle was presented to the regiment by the Emperor. Just using the flag would not make sense if the Eagle it was referring to was not there.

Sasha,

Your second illustration, "Grenadiers de la Reserve," is a special flag made for Oudinot's combined grenadier units from the 1805-07 period. That formation has been discussed repeatedly on TMP, and is another discussion entirely. But the flag is not representative of line infantry fanions.

In the 1809 period, when the "Reserve Grenadiers" were resurrected, they were again issued a (different) pattern specific to their use. If memory serves, those were a vertical tricolor pattern with unit specific writing on them.

Widowson,

Yes, yes indeed!

- Sasha

Thank you Sasha.

Surely, "Vegamite" is the Vegan option.

However, I am not sure if it is made of real Vegans.
YJMV – Your Jar May Vary.

;-0)

Just a mite, ;<)