"21st Pz Division French tanks" Topic

whats the consensus on the use of French tanks by the 21st Pz Division during the Normandy campaign. I can find no evidence for there use, I may be wrong, if they did not use French tanks what replaced them, Pz IV's possibly.

I know French tanks used by the Germans were knocked out at la fiere bridge by US paras

From memory no, there have been a few threads here and the over on the wargames Guild. Pz IV is your beast. The French tanks encountered by the US chappies were not from 21.

However on the wargames table, who is to say the French Trg tanks were not deployed!!

Tally Ho!

Actual French tanks were encountered, but they were training/security units, not 21 PD.

That said, 21 PD had a lot of SP guns on French tank chassis and French 1/2 tracks on strength. Most battle tanks were PZ IV, as noted by Mr Nick in Somerset.

Thanks for the replies, the tanks encountered by the US paras at la fiere bridge were from 100th panzer training unit if I remember correctly

The adhoc vehicles based on the Somua S35 Chasis, they were designed by a 21st Pz officer (name escapes me) who liked to tinker with artillery SP's.

I remember reading that 21st was in the process of getting German tanks to replace their captured ones when the landings occurred.

French tanks were most definitely in use with 21PD in Normandy against the British. They were used in Operation Goodwood and accounted for quite a few tanks.

They were converted by a German Major Becker and were referred to as 'Becker's Battery'. He mounted 75mm and 105mm guns on French Hotchkiss chasis.

See his wiki at: link

S35's in Panzer Regiment 22, the R35's etc. were, I believe, in Ausbildungs and Ersatz Bn 100 – US paras fought those, Mostly Panzer IVG's and probably some D's kicking around.
STuG Abt. 200 had those weird French/German hybrid things that Major Becker designed. He was an engineer that owned a factory and helped design the Hummel. Later took over the Hotchkiss factory in France and did his conversions – would be interesting to know whether he (or his original company) were war profiteering and if this was standard practice in the German system?

bgbboogie – the Germans did not base these weapons on the Somua S35. It was apparently too valuable as a gun tank to do this. The only conversions I have seen were as driver training or artillery tows, and then just a few of each. On the other hand many conversions were based on the Renault, Hotchkiss and Lorraine chassis.

Anyway, RMD will be along soon to put us all right!

As the others have said, the French tanks (i.e. those not converted into SP guns) had already gone before D-Day – possibly to reinforce Panzer-Battalions 205 & 206 at Cherbourg and Le Havre (see below). The crews of those tanks had been sent back to Mailly-le-Camp to receive a reinforcement draft of PzIV.

As a consequence, the 2nd Battalion of Panzer-Regiment 22 was sorely understrength by D-Day, with the 5th, 6th & 7th Companies each existing of essentially a platoon of PzIV G/H. The 8th Company had six early-model PzIV B/C. However, 21st Panzer-Division was probably the only division to actually receive reinforcement panzers during the Normandy Campaign, as those new PzIVs arrived from Mailly.

The 1st Battalion of Panzer-Regiment 22 was up to strength with four companies of Pz IV G/H.

Becker's StuG-Abteilung 200 had four batteries of H39s converted into SP 75mm PaK 40 and 105mm howitzers. Each battery had one indirect-fire platoon of 4x 105mm and two AT platoons of 3x PaK 40. Battery HQ was formed by 1 or 2 open-topped command/OP carriers also based on the H39 chassis. A fifth battery was formed by Goodwood in mid-July 1944. A sixth battery was also in the process of being formed, but was never fielded.

Panzer-Abteilungen 205 & 206 each had roughly a company each of S35, H39 and Char B, plus other odds and sods such as R35s, FTs and UE Carriers – possibly with a further S35 company added in June 1944 (formed from the ex-21st PD tanks). Most of the H39s and UEs in these units were fitted with 28/32cm werfer launching-frames. Some of the Char Bs were flammpanzer variants.

Panzer-Ersatz-und-Ausbildungs-Abteilung 100 was at Ste Mere-Eglise and was equipped with a variety of French tanks, plus some PzIIIs and an infantry element.

Note that the ratio of 75mm to 105mm vehicles in Becker's batteries is often mistakenly reversed in many books (one of them due to my own inaccurate research!). However, having gone back to the source documents, this is due to a mis-translation of an organisational diagram in one of the unit histories that was then repeated in subsequent works. The original organisational diagram and Becker's sketch-maps of Goodwood definitely show 4x 105mm and 6x 75mm in each battery, not 6x 105mm and 4x 75mm.

What were the SP Guns that attacked Ranville? Were they Marders or Lorraine/Hotchkiss hybrids?

The SP guns that attacked Ranville on the 7th June were Becker's Hotchkiss conversions. They spent most of the 6th first heading for Benouville on the west bank of the Orne, then being recalled, staggering back through the chaos of Caen, to regroup with Kampfgruppe 'Luck' on the east bank of the Orne. By then it was getting dark.

Of course all four panzer-grenadier battalions in 21st PD also had halftrack-mounted SP guns (20mm FlaK and 75mm PaK 40). There were also Lorraine-mounted 150mm howitzers in both the panzer-grenadier regiments (125 & 192) and the artillery regiment (155). The artillery regt also had Lorraine-mounted 105s. All of these were in action from 6th June.

The SPs that attacked Benouville from the west early on the 6th June (often mis-identified as 'PzIVs' or 'light tanks') were Lorraine-based Marder Is belonging to Panzerjeger-Abteilung 716, which had a single company of the things (the other two companies had towed guns).

716 Div's artillery regiment also had a single battery of 4x Lorraine 150mm howitzers and these too were in action on 6th June in the vicinity of Douvres-la-Delivrande.

Thanks for the information STuG Abteilung 200 Mark, you are going to make Heroics and Ros very happy as I have my 2 batteries with 6x105mm and 4x75mm. Is this the basis of your Order of battle of 21st Panzer on the Battlefront website? I have read on a couple of sites that the Panzerjäger 35R(f) (4.7cm PaK(t) were in the HQ company of STuG Abteilung 200 have you any information on this?

Noooo! I've done It again!!! I did send Jim an update for that orbat some years ago to correct that mistake, so I'll make sure he updates it with the correct version. Note also that I was wrong re the command vehicles – they were PzBeobw 39H(f) rather than PzBeobw Lorraine(f). The Lorraines were only used by the artillery regt.

Yes, Andy Parkes found a KStn listing a couple of PzJager 35R(f) in the Bn HQ. Our guess is that they may have been Bn HQ defence/recce vehicles or perhaps training vehicles for the 5th & 6th Batteries under training?

Note that there was also a platoon of 6x 2cm FlaK on leSPW U304(f) at battalion level.

I'm still waiting for someone to discover a pram-mounted Pak 40 for 21PZ. Becker seems to have mounted one on any chassis he could lay hands on.

Zetterling, in his book "Normandy 1944", possibly the most comprehensive work on the Germans in Normandy, gives the following for PzReg22 on 1 June 1944:
Headquarters I./PzReg 22:
1 Pz III
1 PZ III befehlswagen
5 Pz IV long

1./PzReg 22 17 Pz IV long
2./PzReg 22 17 Pz IV long
3./PzReg 22 17 Pz IV long
4./PzReg 22 17 Px IV long

Headquarters II./PzReg 22
5 Pz Iv long
3 Somua befehlswagen

5./PzReg 22 5 Pz IV long, 9 Somua
6./PzReg 22 5 Pz IV long 13 Somua 2 Hotchkiss
7./PzReg 22 5 Pz IV long 13 Somua
8./PzReg 22 6 Pz IV short

Zetterling lists the tanks that were 'administratively' on the books. 21. PD still had responsibility for them, but they weren't actually co-located with the division by that time. Similarly, Panzer-Lehr had three Tiger Is administratively on the books, but they were actually in Germany.

Oppeln's orders and reports for 6th June state the number of tanks available to his regiment for its counter-attack against Sword Beach. The number exactly matches the total number of PzIVs and PzIIIs, minus the company detached to KGr Luck.

The best thing is GHQ have finally released both 105mm and 75mm versions of Beckers vehicles. So I can do Goodwood in 6mm at last :)

Sorry Mark, my mistake I got my 4x75mm and 6x105mm from Zetterling, I had always wondered where you had got your figures from for your Order of battle on the Battlefront website. Your current Order of Battle for STuG Abteilung 200 shows 2 of each per company plus PzBeobw 39H(f)for Battlefront organisation. I have just looked at my sources I have downloaded your old organisation to paper, which has a Panzerjaeger 35R(f) in the HQ company. I have this Kstn from a Spearhead site link which lists 12 Panzerjaeger 35R(f). I should get off my * and join the Battlefront Forum, instead of just lurking there, as they are my main rules now.

BattlerBritain Heroics and Ros have most of the 21st Panzer Division vehicles available in 1/300. Here is a link to the page listing them PDF link

Yes, to be fair to Zetterling, Perrigault and others, the 4x 75mm and 6x 105mm org seems to stem from a transcription error in an original German kstn diagram. The late great Ian Daglish did a lot more research regarding the subject and dug out Becker's original after-action reports, complete with sketch maps, which finally put it to bed – the battery deployment maps clearly show two groups of 3x 75mm deployed forward in each position, along with an OP/command vehicle. The 105s are then grouped in a single group of four at the rear of each position – presumably to fire indirectly.

The BF: WW2 organisation is 1:2 or 1:3, so going 'by the book', the two platoons of 3x 75mm are each represented by one model apiece, while the larger platoon of 4x 105mm is prepresented by two models. However, you could happily use 3x 75mm models.

I can't remember if I included it, but you might also want to include a Commander stand who rides in the PzBeobw 39H(f) and who doubles as FO for the 105s,

thanks for all the info guys, anyone have a link to the BF 21 Pz Div orbat

I'm afraid that I can't give you the link from the work computer, sorry (the work net-nanny classes it as 'games').

Mark,

Your updated lists Mar 07?? List x2 75mm and x2 105mm in each company, but no PzBeobw.

Just foun KSTN listings

Stu.Gesch.Abt.:
- Stb.Panz.Abt. gem. K.St.N. 1107 v. 1.4.1943
- Stbs.Kp.Panz.Stu.Gesch.Abt. (45 Gesch.) gem. K.St.N. 1157 a v. 20.6.1943 Beh.
- schn.Panz.Jäg.Kp. (7,5 oder 7,62 cm Pak)(Sfl.) gem. K.St.N. 1148 a v. 1.12.1942
- Reihenwerfer nach Vorschlag der Division

See also

link

Also found a KSTN 726 attached to Pioneer battalion.

Which apparently is a s.Pioneer GrW gruppe, but no idea what or how many mortars this gruppe had.

The actual KSTN 714(gp) had x2 Sdkfz 251/7 allocated.?
More questions open up.

3 Somua befehlswagen

Does anyone have a picture of one of these (can't find one via Google)? Considering how small the turret of a Somua is, I can't imagine where they'd put the extra communications gear.

Andy,

There's a more recent one than that.

Re GrW – yes, there were also some company-level recycled French 81mm mortars (dismountable) that need to be added to the panzer-grenadiers, as well as a mortar platoon (and possibly company-level mortars) in the pioneers.

The 'Sdkfz 251/7' was almost certainly the pioneer variant of the mSPW S305(f).

The BefPz 35S(f) was surprisingly common – the independent panzer units frequently had them even when they didn't have any other S35s. I believe they looked pretty much the same as a regular Pz 35S(f), though the radio kit replaced ammo stowage. I might be imagining it, but I think I've seen one with a 'bedstead' antenna, like Sdkfz 232 armoured cars… though as I said, I might be imagining that.

Did you find that reference to the PzJag 35R(f)s, Andy? It's been 10+ years since we discussed it and I can't remember the details.

Isn't it good to have RMD back. We missed you mate. ;-)

Fatman

Mark.

Thanks for the detailed info.

One thing. Panzer Battalion 205. I have never come across this before. Do you have any detailed info or links I can follow, please?
I am planning a third D-Day campaign for the Hull Wargames Club in 20mm at a 1:3 ratio and this has caught me "right out of position".
I have detailed info on almost every other formation involved but the mention of this unit has turned on my " very interested head"

Cheers.
Graham

Hi Graham,

205 was based at Le Havre and was mostly destroyed there during Operation 'Astonia' in September 1944, though some elements seem to have escaped, to be later incorporated into a reformed panzer division. However, I've never found an orbat for this unit.

Several sources mention that it was organised very similarly to 206 at Cherbourg, which had 2x R35s, 6x B2s (some of these being flammpanzers), 10x S35s, 11x H35/39s with Wurfrahmen, 17x H35/39s and an unknown number of UEs with Wurfrahmen. As mentioned above, there is also some discussion that the units might have replaced a company or perhaps formed an additional company with redundant S35s from 21. Panzer-Division.

Some other oddities: 711 Infantry Division's panzerjaeger abteilung (based in the Merville/Franceville area) seems to have included at least 3x R35s and 1x Char B, as these were photographed there (KOd) after the campaign had moved on. It's possible that these might have been cascaded down from 205.

There is also one curious account by a British soldier of 3rd Division, who claimed to have captured a Churchill Mk III between Sword and Caen, bearing a plaque describing the tank's capture at Dieppe. Panzer-Regiment 100 (which became Panzer-Regiment 22 in 1944) certainly had these Churchills in 1942/43, but they were meant to have been long-gone by 1944! Perhaps it in a scrapyard/maintenance unit, or had been cascaded down to 716 Div or was dug in as a pillbox? Or perhaps it's just wild imagination at work…?

And what turns up on the home page today?

:)

nobody got a link then to the BF 21 Pz Div orbat

Hi Old Smokie, was expecting Mark to bring up the link for Battlefront's 21st Panzer Division, however he must be away from his source,so here is the link.
PDF link
Here is the link for all the Battlefront Orders of Battle.
link
Greg

Here ya go Smokie (I'm on my home computer now): PDF link

That's the 2011 version, so is pretty up to date. I need to add mortars to the panzergrenadier companies (1 stand per company), though I notice that I'd already added the pioneer mortars (distributed as individual sections, rather than as a single platoon). I'm anticipating another revision once Kortenhaus' history arrives.

Heh! A time-on-target posting by me and Greg! :)

mark,

At this very moment i am going through all my electronic files looking for it.

Andy,

I notice on the last version of the orbat (linked above), I'd taken it out for some reason…

Yeah probably wise as i cannot find anything to corroborate.

KSTN 1107 4.43 does not have the attached Erkunder and Flak Zugs that i seem to have attributed to STUG Abt 200.

Can you send me your latest copy of the ORBAT.

I'm having issues with the latest updates to 12th SS as well.

This advertisement just posted on the front page may have just about everything one wanted to know about the division.

TMP link

Jim

thanks guys

@ R Mark Davies

would you mind posting a link to the updated version when its done

Where were the FCM-36 conversions during Normandy?

Andy,

Becker's maps actually showed the location of the Bn HQ flak zug, so they certainly existed.

Yeah, will do, though I won't be updating it until after I've had a read through Kortenhaus.

Re FCM-36 – I've no exact details, but they were almost certainly with some of the many independent panzer units spread all round the French, Belgian & Netherlands coastline and in the Balkans. A lot of web-pages describe the 10x FCM Marder 1s and 12x FCM 10.5cm leFH SPGs as serving with 21st Panzer Division in Normandy, but I've not seen any evidence for that.

The trouble is that a lot of infantry divisions seem to have kept AFVs 'off the books' for fear of losing them, so it's possible that infantry divisions' anti-tank battalions were using them.

I would give my right nut for a SPW107 half track, in 1/35, in plastic, for my 21st Panzer boys. I've already offered my Left nut for a 1/72 scale WW1 barrage balloon!

John

Gang;

Pz.Ers.u.Ausb.Abt. 100:

The Gliederung closest to D-Day that I could find in my research is the one dated 18.5.1944. At that time it was listed as subordinated to 91. Inf.Div. Its composition was as follows:

Stab & Stabskp.: Nachr.Zug, Werkst.Zug and Pz.Zug (3 French tanks armed with 3,7-cm kurz. Zetterling suggests they might have been FT-17s, while I tend towards Renault R 35 with the short L/21 gun)

1.Kp.
2 Schützen-Züge (3 le.MG each)
1 Pz.Zug (5 R 35)

2. Kp.
1 Pz.Zug (1 Somua S 35, 4 R 35)
1 Pz.Zug (1 Char B2, 4 Hotchkiss H 38/39)
1 Pz.Zug (1 Pz III [3,7 or 7,5 gun, unable to read], 4 Hotchkiss H 38/39)

3. Kp.
2 Schützen-Züge (3 le.MG each)
1 Pz.Zug (5 R 35)

Total strength: 664 Officers, NCOs and men

Information found in KTB AOK 7 Ia – Kriegsgliederungen 7. Armee (NARA T312 R1566)

Stab:

Stabskp.:
Nachr.Zug:
Werkst.Zug:
le.Pz.Zug 5 Pz.Kpfw. Renault R35

1.Kp.:
I.(Pz.) Zug 5 Pz.Kpfw. Renault R35
II.(Schtz.) Zug [Schützen, 3 LMG]
III.(Schtz.) Zug [Schützen, 3 LMG]

2.Kp. with
Grp.Fhr.: 2 Pz.Kpfw. III 5 cm
I.(Pz.) Zug: 1 Pz.Kpfw. Somua, 4 Pz.Kpfw. Renault R35
II.(Pz.) Zug: 1 Pz.Kpfw. Renault B 2, 4 Pz.Kpfw. Hotchkiss
III.(Pz.) Zug: 1 Pz.Kpfw. III 5 cm, 4 Pz.Kpfw. Hotchkiss

3.Kp. with
I.(Pz.) Zug: 5 Pz.Kpfw. Renault R35
II.(Schtz.) Zug: [Schützen, 3 LMG]
III.(Schtz.) Zug: [Schützen, 3 LMG]

Weapons listing:
1 Kwk 7,5 cm (f) Pz.Kpfw. Renault B2
3 Kwk 5 cm (d) 3 Pz.Kpfw. III
2 Kwk 4,7 cm (f) 1 Pz.Kpfw. Somua, 1 Pz.Kpfw. Renault B2
8 Kwk 3,7 cm lang (f) 8 Pz.Kpfw. Hotchkiss
19 Kwk 3,7 cm kurz (f) 19 Pz.Kpfw. Renault R35

This unit contained the ONLY German (mostly French) TANKS (not assault guns/tank destroyers) that the American forces fought in Normandy during June 1944.

Mark E. Horan

Gang;

The only other German TANK formation that fought any US forces in Normandy was BautePz.Abt. 206.

Panzer Abteilung 206 was established on 11 November 1943 in Versailles for the 7.AOK and it was destroyed by 26 June 1944 in Cherbourg. On 5 June 1944 it had the following French equipment:

28 x Pz-H38(f) a French Hotchkiss Char 1938-H
10 x Pz-S35(f) a French Somua Char 1935-S
6 x Pz-B2 Flamm(f) a French Char BI bis converted to a flame tank
2 x Pz-R35(f) a French Renault 35

When the Allied forces landed the unit was located in the Contentin Peninsula and were pushed back to Cherbourg which fell on 26 June 1944.

That is what I have on those two units. Note, the major German "armoured" formation that was used against American forces in June 1944 was the 17. SS PzGr.Div. which had no tanks – just assault guns and tank destroyers.

All the infantry formations encountered by the Americans had kompany sized formations of self-propelled tank destroyers, mostly Hetzers, but they were certainly never encountered in any numbers at any single time.

This also explains the utter astonishment of the 101/82 Paratroopers on June 6/7 when they "explosively destroyed" several "German" tanks with bazooka fire – which was entirely contrary to the experience of the 82nd in Sicily/Italy. The fact that most reports had the encountered vehicle's invariably identified on the seen as "Tigers" / "Panzers" [implying regular German tanks) not withstanding :)

Niels Henkemans did a superb photo essay on every tank encountered and destroyed by the US Paratroop forces in the very early portion of the campaign and managed to ID virtually every single tank listed in the German Gliederung.

Hope this helps.

Mark

Re the KStN refs above;

726 was an 'add on' to the various types of Pioneer Coy. It allowed for two 8-cm mortars (which were still classed as heavy in March 1943, the date of issue) per Pio Coy. The KStN covered inf, mountain, mot and armd variations. All consisted of two detachments, and the armd type had these mounted in two SdKfz 251/2 carriers, the mot with two 3-tonners instead.

When the Pio Coy KStNs were redrafted in Nov43 the mortars were included in the governing table.

Also re KStN 1107, that was just for the Battalion HQ staff. The Staff (that is HQ) Coy on 1157a was for a Stug equipped Bn, which does include the Scout Pl (with Kubelwagens), Pio Pl and Flak Pl (3x quad 2-cm on SdKfz 7/1 authorised).

KStN 1148 was for the generic SP Atk Coy, and could have six or ten SP equipments. KStN 1159 was normally intended for use with 1157a, and simply had 14 Stugs in HQ (two) and three Pls (four each). Just to stress that KStNs gave the authorised equipment for units, while Gliederung are those hieroglyphic type documents showing what a formation (Div level) could be made up of. The Germans had a 'modular' approach to KStNs, which means you end up having to stitch lots together, and sometimes take subunits from other tables to fill in the blanks.

OK, you can get back to tanks now…

Gary