"T-64s in southern GSFG armies" Topic

Hey all I posted this in the Cold War forum in a GSFG thread, figured id post it here as well to see if anybody had any thoughts:

I've been trying to do a bit of research on this myself. I'm working on putting together a late 1983 project, simulating if the Able Archer exercise went south. I'm starting in the south with the Americans in CENTAG, then will expand to include Germans, and finally NORTHAG formations. I'd like to bring what I have to the table, and see if anybody has any contradictory information. Primarily though, it boils down to one question:

"Did 8GA and 1GTA receive T-64s at any point?"

My findings are NO, they did not, they went straight from T-62 to T-80. I'll lay out my logic…

Based on the excellent thread referenced ( TMP link though unfortunately no hard copy references are mentioned there ) and BRIXMIS and USMLM reports from this thread ( link ) it is generally agreed upon that:

-2GTA, 3SA, 20GA started to receive shipments of T-64As in 1976. Trying to piece together raw numbers and intelligence, I figure that all line units in these armies were T-64A complete around 1980-1981, and began to receive T-64Bs on a basis of one company per battalion in 1982. Assuming an inflow of about 300 tanks per year ( which is about what the Kharkov plant was producing of T-64As by 1981 ) , most battalions would have their allotment by 1985 or so.

Now T-80Bs didnt start making an appearance until 1983 in 8GA and 1GTA. In the first thread, it is mentioned that there were only 838 T-80s by the end of 1986, which is an average of 209 tanks delivered per year for the 4 years between 83 and 86 ( inclusive ) . There are BRIXMIS and USMLM reports of T-80s in 9TD and 11GTD in 1983/4, as well as near Halle ( which I assume means 27GMRD had them as well ) . Until 1982 27GMRD was a part of 1GTA, then moved to 8GA, so I'm assuming that 1GTA was the priority for T-80s, and 27GMRD received them because they were initially in that Army and the shipment wasn't changed.

It also says that in 1985 that T-80s began to go to the other armies in GSFG, which would slow the re-equipping of 8GA and 1GTA even further.

Of the approximately 7,700 tanks in the GSFG in 1985, the northern 3 armies had about 3,500, the southern 2 about 2,000, and the rest were training/depot/tanks in repair.

Using the average of 209 T-80s per year, the southern 2 armies would have AT MOST 630 T-80s by the end of 1985, which would mean the almost 1400 others would still be T-62s. On the surface it would make sense that these would be replaced by the T-64As being replaced by T-64Bs up north, but anybody who has even been in the military knows that this is no simple task, especially so in the Soviet Army I imagine.

However I can not find a single piece of evidence stating T-64s were with 8GA or 1GTA, no pictures, no intel reports, nothing. All we would need is one instance of a unit in these armies having T-64s to open the floodgates and disprove the theory.

SOOOO… I ask you knowledgeable gentlemen, do you know of any T-64s in these armies facing CENTAG? If we can't find any, and if that 838 number is true ( I would sure love to see a reference on that seeing as how pretty much the whole theory is based on that ) , then the only conclusion is that these armies had T-62s well into the mid-late 1980s before the big T-80 push swept them away post 87.

Any thoughts you all have would be greatly appreciated!

There would have been T64s once the formations came in from Hungary. Even then it would have been a toss up, of where those forces were directed to.

Otherwise the next call up of reserves from the USSR would have been the next to have T64s.

I'm pretty sure that by the eighties there wouldn't have been any T62's in GSFG. It would have been either the T64 or T80, with the bulk being T64 B and BV. I may be wrong, but tanks were supplied to regiments, so you wouldn't get a mix of T64 and T80 within a regiment (if not division). The T62 was not a front line tank for the Russians, it was almost entirely export only by the late seventies.

A great blog worth a visit is -
coldwargamer.blogspot.co.uk
There's plenty of the sort of info you're after there.

I'm working on a Motorised Soviet Rifle company circa 1986 at the moment. It's built around a company of infantry mounted in BMP1Ps, and with T64BV's in support.

"SOOOO… I ask you knowledgeable gentlemen, do you know of any T-64s in these armies facing CENTAG? If we can't find any, and if that 838 number is true (I would sure love to see a reference on that seeing as how pretty much the whole theory is based on that), then the only conclusion is that these armies had T-62s well into the mid-late 1980s before the big T-80 push swept them away post 87."

That seems an entirely reasonable conclusion and there were certainly T62s around in Germany in the early 1980s.

The coldwargamer blog agrees.

Specifically from the CIA estimates of tank strength:

"Between 1981 and 1985, in GSFG the T62 fleet in 1st Guards Tank Army and 8th Guards Army converted to T 80B"

T62 were officially withdrawn in 1984. Some ITBs held on to them for another year or two… They were sturdy and easily maintained. The ITBs were really training battalions.
The T62s were a good fit.

The big ramp up in T80s was 87. As far as actual deployment… who knows?

Joe Collins

McWong73,

I'm afraid I have to respectfully disagree with you on a number of points.

1) "I'm pretty sure that by the eighties there wouldn't have been any T62's in GSFG… The T62 was not a front line tank for the Russians, it was almost entirely export only by the late seventies

-It was actually quite the opposite, the T-62 was very much a front-line tank, and was an export flop. Check out this article in ARMOR magazine from the 1990s PDF link (starts on page 21)

It's a fascinating look into the convoluted, jealous, and intriguing history of Soviet tank production. The short of it is that there was no unity of effort, each of the three design houses was pressing their own agenda, and this was allowed to happen in the Soviet system. Morozov designed the revolutionary T-54 at the Nizhniy Tagil plant before moving to the Kharkov plant. His jealous replacement, Kartsev improved the design at NT as the T-55. He further improved this model as the T-62, while Morozov produced the T-64 at his Kharkov plant.

The T-62 was not revolutionary so much as it was evolutionary from the T-55, however it was a flop as an export tank because of it's exorbitant price (nearly 3 times more expensive than the T-55) compared to its negligible advantages (bigger gun, but 100mm ammunition was soon introduced that made them almost equal in terms of firepower). Thus it was never adopted in anything but token quantities by other armies within and outside the Warsaw Pact. Some were exported in medium quantities to countries like Egypt, but these paled in comparison to the exports of the T-55A, which continued in production within the Soviet Union until 1979, and continued even after that in Poland and Czechoslovakia. You can find plenty of pictures of front-line Guards units using T-62s well into the 1980s.

2) "It would have been either the T64 or T80, with the bulk being T64 B and BV"

-In the units facing NORTHAG, yes. There's plenty of evidence of T-64s completely equipping divisions of 2GTA, 3SA, and 20GA. The bulk would actually be T-64As, as T-64Bs were deployed on a basis of one company per battalion. T-80s began to filter into the northern three armies around 1985-1986 time-frame. However, evidence of T-64s in the southern armies (8GA, 1GTA) is what I'm searching for, unsuccessfully so far.

3) " but tanks were supplied to regiments, so you wouldn't get a mix of T64 and T80 within a regiment (if not division)"

-This is a myth that is easily dis-proven by looking at USMLM and BRIXMIS reports from that era. For example, here's a report from September 1984: "T-80 was being introduced into 1st Guards Tank Army, and 8th Guards Tank Army, and although a complete battalion complement had not been observed they appeared to he replacing the T-62 on a one for one basis" Obviously replacing entire regiments would be the ideal, however given the complexities of any military logistics system (especially the Soviet system), the mantra that regiments were never mixed can not realistically be true. With T-80B production at a mere ~200/year in the early 1980s, and the fact that all 7 divisions in 1GTA and 8GA (17 of 28 regiments) had SOME by 1985, they simply could not be deployed in entire regiments.

Your MRC(+) would be entirely accurate for a unit facing NORTHAG.

Joe,

The official declaration to withdraw the T-62s occurred in 1984, but surely the implementation of this directive did not occur overnight. Just based on my own experience with the US Army, which has a pretty good logistics system in my opinion, an order of this magnitude would require years of phased withdrawals. For example, when I was in 1st ID (not a high priority unit for equipment) in 2009, we were fielded new equipment (new to us): M1A1SA's and M3A2 ODS BFVs. These models of vehicles were well over a decade old!

For argument's sake, even if they shipped all the T-62s home in one night, what did they replace them with in 8GA and 1GTA? Based on numbers it was clearly wasn't all T-80s (only 838 in all GSFG by the end of 1986, and 2000+ tanks in those two armies alone). Which leaves only one possibility: T-64s. However I can't find a single example of a T-64 being in 1GTA or 8GA. Failing that, the only logical conclusion is that T-62s lingered on in these armies until completely replaced by T-80s in 1987+.

-Max

Maybe a silly question, but with all the talk of T-62/64 and T-80s, where do the T-72s fit in? I was always led to believe (perhaps in error) that from the mid 80s on they were the most numerous model. Is that true for most formations, but not for 8GA?

Dan,

Good question. In 1967 Kartsev and the Nizhiny Tagil design bureau were charged with making a simpler, cheaper, more reliable version of the T-64. After much drama and gnashing of teeth, the T-72 passed with flying colors and was accepted for production. It was also designated as an export tank, though the tanks designed for export were greatly downgraded in terms of armor and fire control systems. These are the T-72s that performed so poorly in the gulf war, and why the Russians changed the name of modernized T-72s to T-90, a marketing tactic to distance the model from the perceived failures of the T-72Ms…

Anyway, T-72As and T-72Bs served with Soviet units, just not in the GSFG. I don't have my reference material on me at the moment, so I can't give you specifics as to where they were, but it wasn't Germany. The NVA (EG Army) had some T-72s in the 80s, but not many

After looking at my materials, by the late-80s T-72s were with:

-NVA (small amount)
-CSLA (Czech Army, small amount)
-CGF (Soviet forces in Czech.)
-LWP (Polish Army, very small amount)
-NGF (Soviet forces in Poland)
-SGF ( Soviet forces in Hungary)
-A few in the Hungarian and Bulgarian armies
-a good amount in the Western Military Districts of the USSR (primary reserve for any ground war in Europe)