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"Early Russian Jager Musicians" Topic


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Widowson06 Jun 2014 10:38 p.m. PST

I'm talking about the 1805-07 period, with the top hat shakos and the wraparound cartridge belts and cylindrical valise backpacks. "Light" green uniforms and regimental color distinctions.

Did those jagers employ both drummers and hornists?

Did they carry weapons?

I'm working 1/72 plastic, and need to convert figs for drummers. All the HaT figs have the wrap around cartridge belts. A drummer wouldn't have that, right? I need to cut it off?

xxxxxxx07 Jun 2014 11:47 a.m. PST

You are right, no cartridge pouch for drummers. Weapons were the short sword.

battalion drummer (under-officer rank):

picture

Note: 7 (vice 6) white sleeve chevrons, white edge galons, under-officer galon on collar all indicating under-officer rank

The establishment, from 30 April 1802 (Old Style -as are all dates here) was :
- 1 regimental drummer, under-officer, with the first battalion
- 2 battalion drummers, , under-officers, 1 each with the second and third battalions
- 24 company drummers, rankers, 2 per company (could be formed in a battery when the battalion was in formation or detached when the battalion was in order order)
In the summer of 1806, the jâger regiments, which had small company sizes than in grenadier and musketer regiments were at least partially brought into line with the organization of the other army regiments.
4 July 1806 : 12x ensigns (praporshchik) were added
16 August 1806 : the then forming 24th, 25th and 26th Jäger were ordered to complete to the full war-time strength of the army heavy infantry, in line with prior orders that the jäger regiments were to have the same number of rankers as army heavy infantry regiments.

There are open questions about possible other changes made to the jäger regiments at this time to bring them into line with the heavy regiments – questions for which I can't find answers in the PSZ ….
- did they add 3 more majors for a total of 4 ? I don't know. With the general re-organization of 1810-1811, they did have the same number of majors as the heavy infantry (by then 5)
- did they decrease captains and add staff captains (a company without a higher officer was supposed to have a captain, the others staff-captians) ? likely yes, more or less – in any case the authorized total for both ranks was 12 officers
- did they increase junior under-officers from 60 (5 per company) to 72 (6 per company) – likley yes (the Russians used yefreytorov, senior soldiers or lance-corporals of ranker pay, as vice-under-officers …. so adding 12 would just be a change in pay for those men)
- did they adopt the additional 12 drummers ? I think yes, these were rankers and the decree of 16 August says rankers equal to heavy infantry
- did they adopt a regimental band of 9 under-officers with varied insturments, like the heavy infantry? I will quss (repeat guess) no, not in 1806 and also not in 1810-1811 …. I make the guess based on having never seen a single reference specifically to such musicians in jäger regiments
- several mid-1800's secondary sources show actually 6 valthornists : 5 rankers and 1 master-valtornist corporal …. this would work out nicely to two per battalion, if true (and such a person was included in the 1798 shtat, when the valthorns were supposed to be used for signalling and took the place of drummers, as they had traditionally in the Russian jäger since the 1780's or earlier).


The hornists are a bit problemmatic. Well, they didn't have pouches – that part is easy. They problems lay elsewhere.

The transcibed personnel table published later in the 1800's for shtat of PSZ 20.252 (30 April 1802) shows 5 valthornists among the "tactical musiciens" with pay as rankers. And the tables show no regimental band musicians at all. This implшes that they were tactical musicians, actually to be used for signalling. In combat, regimental band musicians were stretcher-bearers.

However ….

The table of equipment from PSZ 20.252 shows the 5 valthorns, each costing 12 rubles (annual pay for a corporal) on the same line as the musicians' valthorns from grenadier and musketeer regiments (compared to 5 rubles for a clarient and 1 ruble for a fife). So, this is a rather complex instrument, and likely looked more like a modern French horn than a un-valved "natural" hunting horn.
So, this would be the instrument (In the field, they were carried in a brass case with black leather sling) :

picture

A purely signalling valthorn would likely be a natural horn like this :

picture

Viskovatov is quite clear : he classes the jäger valtornists with regimental band musiciens, all under-officers, just like the larger and more vaired regimental bands of the grenadier and musketeer regiments.
listat.ru/T10/T10_04.htm
волторнисты / voltornisty / valtornists (1802):

picture

Note again, the under-officer distinctions.

The September 1802 regulation for the tophats (actually "round hats") has them for "нижнимъ строевымъ чинамъ Егерскихъ полковъ", or combattant lower ranks of Jäger regiments. The "tactical" musicians (drummers, fifers assigned to grenadier companies) were combattant ranks. The regimental band (other instruments) were non-combattants, and so would have kept their "chapeau" style hats, as in the illustration of the 1802 uniform shown above.

So, here's my take on the evolution of jager regiment musicians …. the following is opinion ….

I think that the older regiments (1st through 19th regiments, maybe 20th jâger) could have had natural horn valthorns in 1805-1807, from the prior organization. I think they would have been slower to convert to signalling by drums. They may have had an under-officer master-valthornist. They would have seen these guys as combattants and maybe made up round hats for them. They might have quite slow in creating regimental bands of valthornists, all of under-officer rank.

The more recently raised regiments, most formed from heavy infantry or garrison units, would have seen the drummers as the normal guys for signalling and would have treated their valthornists (if/when they had any) as regimental band musicians (all of under-officer rank), using the stipulated valved valthorns (French horn style). The would be used to the idea of having a regimental band. So, before the conversion to shakos, these guys would have "chapeau" hats. In combat, they woul d be stretcher-bearers.

I think the drumming method of signalling became more generalised by 1812, partially because the effort to train up tactical drummers for all the new regiments made it easier to get drummers, and that the tactical use of horns had faded away. Indeed, I have never heard of the use of horns in 1812 or later (althoguh some jäger officers report using whistles of their own purchase, and the grenadier companies of jâger battalions did get fifers). Practically, the whistle method seems best to me, and it may have become the most common method used when in open order. Drummers might be a little too exposed and attention-grabbing (for the enemy) to use while skirmishing.

But, I do not think, as noted above, that the jäger formed larger regimental bands of varied instruments – just 5 (or maybe 6) valthornists.

Again, the above is opinion. I would be very very (repeat very) eager to know of more specific source-based information (contemporary, original language information).

- Sasha

Widowson13 Jun 2014 12:19 p.m. PST

Sasha,

Many thanks for all that info. Very interesting. Sorry it took me so long to see your reply.

Working in 1/72 plastic, building Russian forces from the 1805-07 period is quite challenging. The only infantry available are from HaT – one set each heavy and light infantry, a set of dragoons, and cossacks. I expect that the promised infantry leadership set will never appear. But I just have a liking for the cylindrical pack, the jager "top hat", and some grenadier miters.

Creating a Jager drummer will then require a conversion from a heavy infantryman with a jager head swap. There is no practical way to carve off the wrap around cartridge pouch on the jager figure.

Scharnachthal26 Jan 2016 3:55 a.m. PST

Sasha, do you read German? If yes, you should read this book which may give you a completely new insight into the subject of line Jäger regimental bands (though the information given refers to the later years of the Napoleonic wars – 1812/1813):

amazon.com/Als-badischer-Milit%C3%A4rmusiker-Napoleons-Kriegen/dp/317023031X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1453803387&sr=8-1&keywords=als+badischer+milit%C3%A4rmusiker

These are the memoirs of Balthasar Eccardt, a Baden musician ("Hautboist") who participated in the 1812 campaign. He was taken captive by the Russians but was lucky enough to be unexpectedly engaged as a band master with a Russian regiment he came across near Wilna while being escorted back.

This was the 27th Jäger regiment – and it had a large band of 40 (!) musicians (Eccardt expressly calls them "Hautboisten"). This band was divided into two sections. On the one hand a complete Turkish band, on the other a Horn orchestra (no Valthornists, but players of Mares horns – you know, just one note or half note per instrument). Such a "superfluous luxury" even when on campaign! But who cared about the regulations. The regimental chiefs had the say.

The normal size of a horn orchestra was 24 musicians, so I assume that the complete Turkish band was 16 strong. Eccardt says that it was the Turkish band that played the actual music while the horn orchestra just accompanied them.

It can also be gleaned from Eccardt's memoirs that all other units of the army corps to which the 27th Jägers belonged had bands as well for he proudly claims that under his direction the band of the 27th became the best of the whole corps.

Quite interesting, I think.

Widowson26 Jan 2016 6:46 p.m. PST

This new web site info, see copied link below from another thread, indicates that only about 6 regiments were ever issued the Top Hat shako, and despite the dates on the plate above, it was completely gone by 1803.

A lot of this Russian info is in dispute, and I hope I'm wrong about this one, but here's the link:

link

Widowson26 Jan 2016 6:47 p.m. PST

Sorry, link did not transfer. Consult thread: "Love/Hate the Russians."

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