"20mm 1/72 Fantasy Elf warrior (and more coming)" Topic

Hi guys, i have being sculpting 15mm historical (13th century) but stoped for a while, to start "exploring" this not-very-used/available scale in fantasy.

This scale is for me, the limit of "smaller yet with details" for miniatures, 15 is the next level but with a lot less of details available to sculpt and make it look nice..

And 28m, well there are a lot of fantasy in this scale, so i choosed 20mm looking foward to achieve this objetive:

making good nice quality (in details) small miniatures, that allows (cause of the smaller scale) players to play bigger battles (rather than only skirmishes as 28mm allows), as in 15mm, being able to save space (all is smaller :P) and money (the smaller, the less material needed to copy)

I started 2 days ago, but i have a finished model, an Hindu based concept Elf Warrior in heavy armor, and a WIp of mounted unit (using a bull).

This is a WIP of the elf (at 90%)

Here finished:

ANd, the "cavalry".. with medium armour (VERY WIP , something like 60%):

I just HAVE TO say something. Your infantry is an example of how figure designers living in completely different world from figure painters. Those rivets are just too small and too numerous. It will be extremely hard to paint, especially if one has to paint a whole unit of those.

I love 1/72 (20mm) scale fantasy, so I would be very happy to see you produce a range of 1/72 elves – it is very hard to find any decent elves in this scale.

I have a couple of suggestions that I think can be helpful to your project:

1) as igwarg1 says above, the infantry figure would be hard to paint – also because of the weapon's position held so tight over the helment and face – painting these key areas would be very difficult unless the arms were seperate (and not many like painting a figure and then gluing on limbs, then painting them).

2) The elves would look a lot more 'elven' if you slimmed them down and made them more graceful.
Show more of their delicate faces, slim down their limbs and bodies, and give them poses that reflect their balletic grace (look at infinity sci-fi to see what I mean).

3) I like different steeds, but once again, I think an ox is a rather lumbering, heavy kind of animal. Maybe mount your elf cavalry on big cats such as panthers, or birds, or entirely fantastical, elegant riding beasts. Like the elves, the riding beasts should be dynamic, in motion – running or leaping poses, not static.

Please don't take this as negative criticism; I think you have real skill and I wish you luck in this project. If you can produce some new designs along the lines I've described, I might be able to help find a company for you that would put some minis into production.

Beautiful sculpts. The poses are believable.

There are some criticisms however…

As mentioned above, lots of rivets might be a little off-putting.

It doesn't really scream "ELF". That maybe is not a criticism. It's just not delivering what the package says.

Not sure I am convinced about the bull as a mount. I prefer horses myself. Maybe a stag. But that's a matter of personal taste.

Overall my take is that it is a nice looking sculpt that would better be served as a fantasy human.

I like the different take on elf. The only critiscism I echo is the difficulty the pose creates for painting the face.

hi! thanks for coments.

You are right, really, i will decrease rivets, or just delete them all and put bigger (and less numbered) details, like simbols/icons, which was the original idea.

The arms will come separated of course, :P it would be almost imposible to mold that miniature as one piece :)

The bull is in dead pose (not posed at all, just there as a guide for myself to scult the rider), it is a heavy cavalery, this elfs, for "light and fast unit" will have other creatures, the bull are a strike force, remember these are HINDU based/concepted elfs, and indian had elephants as heavy, and horses (with light and heavy cavalry).

Then i guess this should help, a sketch of what i call "elf", with a different point of view , o rbased in other characteristics, but conserving the main ones (white skin, thin – not ultra thin-, long helmetes, good armor-the heavy armor- and sword related weapons + spears+ bow)

But well, from the sketch to the 3D in this scale, some parts were engrosed, still, i can work to make then a little bit thiner, yes, i can.

I understand that they dont scream ELF, but dont forget that here you are just seing 2 units with heavy armor, it doesnt matter how elf you are if you are coated in a 20 kilos scale armor, you might look "not-as-thin-and-gracefull-as-you-should-be-if-you-are-naked-or-only-with-clothe-and-running through-the-forest-with-wild-happy-animals".

My point (it is very important, to understand stuff that also might help you see things in a diffrent way)is that i am aware of what you said, but i am also conscious that, that point of view is very influencied by purely aesthetic based fantasy vision, the hadcore fantasy..

When the truth is that, yes, we can keep nice armors, thin looking guys, however, in war, in battle, as a MEDIUM/HEAVY unit you have no grace, you are there to kill and try not to be killed, not to dance (unless you are a special unit, of course, after all this is fantasy), the gracefull moements is during the mach, the standars. the songs, but battle time is battle time.

So i am trying to make fantasy, YES, but with a differemt aproach, a SERIOUS one, not based in "cool minis with really big and useless shoulder pads", if the heavy infantry man showed not grace in a fighting possition, that means that i am doing it right, however,i let you know that the comand groups, generals, standars and musician, they will show that, also without helmet and a more "parade uniformn" because they dont clash into combat as a heavy infantry or a bull heavy cavalry would.

RESUME: i will delete those rivets, and make the chest and legs/arms a BIT (dont forget it is 20 mm, parts are already thin to COPY) thinner.

PD: desings of other untis in colour (some parts might change), you wil see taht i imagine them colorfull, as the Hindu/indian people were/are, giving a "gracefull" touch.. you see :D .. but, remember, you can have a gracefull clothe/armor, still, you could have had a day and have a face :0 (or being in front of an enemy soldier)

Medium infantry:

Light (poor guy) infatry:

And an archer with light/medium armour, the sketch is horrible, the bow is going to be very different :P

I really preciate your coments, it helps me knows what others thinks/feel (for example that sculptors hate painters and make a lot of unpaintable rivets jaja :P )

salutes!

The drawings look pretty good. I like the armored spearman a lot with the conical helm.

I think another thing to do is make sure the faces can be seen and that the cheek features are sufficiently angular.

As a fan of 20mm-1/72 fantasy, I'm excited to hear about more sculptors making more of my favored miniatures! In addition to other comments here, I would generally encourage you to make sure your elves look sufficiently elvish. The quasi-Indian elves are an interesting idea, but if they look too much like Indians and not enough like elves, then there won't be much point. One may as well get a set of Indians, of which there are a few sets available already. I actually like long-hair and pointy-ears look despite being exaggerated, because they are generic and clearly say "elf" even in the smaller scale. But the build should at least be non-human enough to say that the figures aren't human.

By the way, you have a possible price in mind, or is that something you'll figure out as you develop the line?

Yes, thats a point, the "triangular faces" + long hair + ears are the resources i have to exploit, i will make soldiers without helmet, and squad liders + champion without helmets, or with a helmet that allows long hair to "escape" inside out.

Regarding prices, a 20mm miniature costs less than half of what a 30mm miniature cost, i will try to produce plastic (building my own bench plastic injection machine, thati am thinking to serie and sell too haha) if not, i will make the with pewter/white metal, which as all we know, is more expensive than plasic, however, still "cheap" cause of the smaller size of the miniature compared to 30mm..

So if with 1 kilo of pewter i can make 80 30mm miniatures, i will be able to make +-200 miniatures in 20mm..so, with that in mind and adding earnings (fundamented in the good quality i am aimming) a CRUDE number would be rounding 60 cents of dollar each infantry IN METAL.. that would be 20 spearmen in 20mm for 12 dollars aprox.

and plastic, kind of 40 cents.. 20 spearmen for 8 dollars :0

i hope that the hipotethical prices are fine too haha :D

salutes!

Ok. today focused in the rider, and made fast work on the bull pose, just for the pic.

I made the rivets changes, luckly this unit had rivets only in the helmet :P, i will remove the othe rdozen of rivets from the heavy armor kit later.

well, a quick pic of the first and notable change, and then a pic with the model almost finished (just litttttle changes to be done, the pose will be improved a bit).

NOTICE, and tell me your opinion, i added hair escaping from the lower part of the neck/upper chest defense, is okay? or not necesary to put in THIS model ?

OK: helmet rivets removed and the torse (as legs and other parts, thinned)

And the bull, making an obliterating charge (will be better looking when i change the torso inclination more foward) :o

salutes!

The new designs look great, but they still look essentially like humans, not elves. I would buy these, but I'd use them as human forces (and I like your prices).

As 123Mac points out, there are plenty of 1/72 kits of humans, although it's something new and a bonus to have bullriders.

The point about elves and their armour is this: elves are magical, ethereal creatures, not entirely physical, and all their 'equipment' should reflect this.
A miniature's form serves multiple purposes. As well as presenting a dynamic pose and an anatomy suitable to the creature, it needs to symbolically express the creature's nature in concrete aesthetic terms.
Aesthetics in fantasy miniatures therefore reflects a different 'reality' from that of the mundane world. Elves don't wear lumbering armour because it's not 'elvish' – elves are the essence of grace, sophistication, etc, and their armour is made from strange, magical materials. Applying 'real world' considerations somewhat misses the point.

By the way, I didn't mean to imply that the figures should look as if they are actually dancing, but that they should possess the elegance and athleticism of a dancer or a fencer.

By all means continue making these miniatures as they are, I think they're a nice design, but call them something else – a fantastical creature's 'reality' is its archetype – while dragons vary, every dragon possesses dragon characteristics – ferocity, serpentine or saurian characteristics, a tail, etc. Calling a rabbit with snail's horns a dragon still doesn't make it a dragon!

However, on one point we certainly agree: no big shoulderpads, they are just silly!

As a point of interest, classical Indian 'elves' and nature spirits were generally represented in sculpture as elegant, flowing female forms similar to european dryads, naked or partially clothed. Noty essential to this discussion, but worth considering, nonetheless…

It may very well hurt your sales, because the responses on this board indicate many people have rigid notions of what elves "are" like, but I hope you keep them as originally envisioned.

Interesting project, I really like the idea of Hindu-like Elves and bulls as steeds.

I second the proposal of calling the Elves something else (just internet-translate into Sanskrit or Urdu "Ancient People", "Graceful Folk" or the like) – a lot of people, like Fisherking said, have rigid notions of Elves and their expectations will be different from your project. Think, say, of Melniboneans in Moorcock's stories – they are basically Elves, but with a very different take from classic fantasy, and nobody ever complained.

By all means go on with the project, the pricing is very interesting and the scale deserves some dedication from manufacturers. I myself favour 1/100 scale (18mm), but your Elves could still fit this scale as very tall creatures.

You made me think, yes, its as if a sculpta dwarf but call it "orc".

HEre the diference is not THAT obvious, but, the design still isnt "suitable" enought to call them Elves, i could however call them, treat them as lanfrancus said "gracefull folk", a different looking, culture and living stile than "normal" or "not gracefull" humans, but still diferent from elves.

When making/designing this elves i was thinking more in "impreial elves", as in warhammer high elves, but, as i said, you made me think, i will back to paper and pen + read the nordic description of what an elve was, and re desing them (there were blonde and dark haired elfs eh! i remember that haha). but still wil work on this "Ancient people"

i translated, ancient people would by "Puratana Janara" :O and "Naturals" (they are in "peace" with nature) is Naisargika NOTHING BAD

lets say, this are the Naisargika Folk :), a closed to the world, nature lovers/symbiotic mentally superior, yet humble (not proud) human faction.

So, thanks people, really.

I will keep working on this Naisargika factions, and use one human faction slot to make them "true" elves, (i have 5 human, 2 elfs, 2 dwarf and 2 orcs factions to be made :D ).

cya!

Following this Naisargika Folk interpretation is a great concept.
I'm very much in favour of adding interesting new races and peoples to fantasy, and this seems a really good line to pursue!

And Lanfrancus: Moorcock's decadent Melniboneans are one of the key inspirations for modern fantasy elves – certainly for the representation of Drow, for example, and one of my favourite fantasy races. If someone were to produce 20mm Melniboneans, I'd buyt tons of them.

That would be celtic/geramnic looking elves, i will work on that! :D

As someone who was trained as an animator, you really should look into how animals move before posing them as if they were moving.

Almost no quadrapedal animal on Earth moves with its front and back pairs of legs perfectly parallel in both instances. Such poses look very unnatural.

*geek mode on* Pratana Janata sounds good, but note that Naisargika means "natural" in the sense of spontaneous, innate; you might want to use Vanyas or Vanajas: "forest-born", "wild". Or even Prithvizvaras, "Masters of the Land" or "Lords of Earth", in the sense of growing things, beasts and animals. *geek mode off*

If you plan to mix Indoeuropean myths of different origin, like Germanic, Celtic and Indian, then it would just be fantastic. Imagine Elves battling Rakshasas, or Monkey Men against Orcs and Trolls. There's enough to grow a hype :)

@Twin Mirror: second that, Melniboneans would be a great addition, and a delight to paint of all the colours of Chaos. Guess nobody did them before for copyright issues? That's a real pity.

Has did them way back when. I believe they were actually the forerunners to the high elves. Same style, helmet, and sculptor. Jes Godwin.

"Has did them"? Really? I don't know how that happened. It's no fun proofreading your posts hours after the fact. I could have sworn I typed GW has done them in the past.

@Turtle i guess you did not readed: "Ok. today focused in the rider, and made fast work on the bull pose, just for the pic"

In the other hand:

I already did fast sketches of germanic elves (rather than hindu elves), and you will like them :D

As the celtic or north people, this concept will have a lot of light armored (or none armor at all.. naked? :D) people, but that, as we know is because they live in "forest" in touch with nature… so here is how i thinked why the forest elves would add armoured units:

Lets say you are enemy of elves and somehow want to get rid of them, but you cant send your (light medium and heavy)troops to their "habitat", they would be ambushed,masacred, arrowed etc.. you, as the enemy of elves would develop tactics (destroying forest/deforesting, inundation produced by represes/levees, turning in flames the trees etc) leading the elves to move out (they would fight but eventually run), and there, fight, making a campal battle in which they see their weak points..

So, this is how during time and years of adapting (and being pushed from their homelands and territories), the elves had develop armoured troops as well as they still (of course,is part of culture) keep the light-super light troops, and that "fluff" (a militrary tactic historical based fluf) is whcih introduces armoured troop to the "nature people".

So: this type of elves will have in light troop all kinds of weapons: javelins, archers, spearmen, short/long swords, scouts, pathfinders etc, but in medium and heavy armour, they will adapt the infantry and cavalry troops to help those light onedo their job in open field battle, because they are THE BEST at lighting enemy down, but cant stop a cavalry charge (imagine a Bull heavy cavalry charging an elve javalineer haha)so, they have their heavy troops to cover them.

The heavy units, wil still look as other faction medium units, none shall have greaves, yes "shoes" or sandalls, i will maintain their "lightness" looking, having nice shields rather than a full of plates armour.

google germinica/celtic warrior and that would be the look of this elves, not the same of course but similar.

personally, i like this pic scene and colours representing light troops:

and this one showing a medium armour (the foot warrior).. of course that helmets and other "solid" parts will be more "fantastical"

@Landfrankus: i am planing to make that and more, i have desings for factions based in pre/post-colombian times, oriental factions, muslim/middle east faction, all with their mithological counterpart.

for exmple, the Hindu faction, have the monkey man has allies, to fight Ravanas, giants,serpent creatures (naga) etc.. taht will be epic, it is epicin my mind at least haha!

The middle east faction has the counter part of demons, chimera, dijins, qarinah (succubus), sphinx…

And so on.. all factions, based in historcail civilations, will have their mithological counter part, except 1 or 2 that will share creat ures of course, as the norse and russian based factions..

you can imagine it as the Age of mitology 1 intro :P but with far more units, and in middle ages ( all are going to be set to look as the historical civilizations looked in 12/13th century)

I happen to like the rivets, and really, it's all in how you paint them. If these are Eastern style elves with Eastern style armor systems, then those rivets along with the metal or leather armor pieces they're meant to reinforce and hold in place in like measure would quite possibly be all covered in a coat of lacquer.

The figures therefore would be as easy or difficult to paint as one's imagination and skill makes 'em. I for one am not put off by such a figure, as I paint samurai and Chinese often enough to be unintimidated by a mass of rivets that can be covered by a coating of lacquer:

I like where you're going with your ideas, Iterion. You're not just following the herd of Eurocentric-to-death elves, but branching out into the rest of the world's mythologies and cultures, civilizations every bit as vibrant and nuanced as anything found in the West.

I say you keep the original of that heavy infantryman, if only as a leader pose with more elaborate armor, and oh, these guys need back up weapons like a short sword, mace, etc hanging from their belts or saddle bows…

Leland R. Erickson
Metal Express
metal-express.net

Hi, yes, i will "delete" most of the rivets, but leaving them in crucial points, like plates joints, or where the plates are attached to the body.. mostly those are going to be in pairs..

BUt can not leave a "totally rivetes head", because those "big rivets" would transmit other thing rather than "real rivets that hold the armor in 1 piece", they might make people think that, that rivets are actually, big rivets in a aesthetical purpose, reinforcement purspose.. or detail purpose, and that is because of the scale of the rivet.. So, yes i will keep important rivets.

HOwever this, for now will not be in the first wave "elves" as i understood they would not "hype" in the scale i would like; i will make as elves, the germanic ones, but later on make as a sneaky add on to the HIndu "humanoid": the hindu elves as mercenaries (the same armour, but without helmets and showing he ears and hair etc) :o today i am painting with water colour the sketches!

I love where you're taking this project, Itlerion – your plans for Hanuman-style monkey warriors, Ravana demons, middle-eastern chimera – this is a 20mm fantasy gamer's dream come true!

WEll, the 1 or 2 most important units are to be drawn + paint ( i have to say i am not a pro drawer/painter at all )those are the iconic archers with cloacs, and spearmen..

This desings are standar, all can or not have cloacs, more or less clothe etc etc.

there will be also lighe medium and heavy cavalry, chariot an some creature (mithological or not) to use (as with all factions), while infantry there is going to be light and medium as i sketched, however maybe some rare/strange heavy infantry, or special body guard will be made..

As for now i made a skirmisher with javalins and a smaller shield than the swordman (a veteran elve in this case), and then, a medium infantry with hexagonal shield + spear + short sword/long knife.

Those designs look great, Itlerion. I would definitely get these elven troops!

:) luckly, they are super easy to sculpt haha!

hey i forgot to link to my facebook page, there are lots of desings (sketches) there if anyone wants to see, there are nordic ones and kievan (russian) ones, as the precolombinian ones.. i have still to draw the oriental and middle east ones.

Also you can see desings of the Neushtrian elves, however they will change a little after this change in Erythiran elves concept.

facebook.com/menhir.menhir

Back to sculpting (sorry for double post, i cant edit my last message), i have made the changes to armour plates of the Prithvizvaras/Naisargika humanoid "folk" (not elve anymore).. the secondary weapons (and most of other weapons) are not sculpet yet, but yes, this 2 handed big sowrdman will have a secondary weapon, a kukiri or short version of the weapon he is weilding.

hello! well, i have being working slowly this week, fault of the cold :( it makes my hands become a cube of ice. however have being drawing (in paper) and writting.

i should have made 3 more sculpts (3 medium infantry) however i made 1 and the other 2 are at 25% lets say..

this dude has nice moustache, a spear and a kukiri (the 2 handed swordman of the previous post will have this weapon too)

aslo i made (not very cute as i wanted) a fast skecth of the elf cavalry, a light one, wit ha spear, shield and short sword.. i put him with the other family members :P

Dont those colours tell you "autunm" ? :D

The stag-rider is awesome. Great work!

twin mirror, i want to make a question, but cant send you PM, what is your mail? or i give you mine otherwise: menhirgames@hotmail.com

:D

Hi, Itlerion, I will send you an email straight away!

thanks :)

BTW, i sculpet the other 2 spear men!, however i will make one more, with the spear on the floor, vertically.

and with perspective + defensive possition :0

Okay, made the 4th model, changed the spear, for a larger one, and with a more fantastical edge, a PIKE.

Also, advanced in the bull rider, made 4 poses to the bull, and a Shamshir, a Hindu sabre/scimitar as secondary weapon.

YOU CAN see the images BIGGER by right click-open image in new tab.
The 4 models:

A small unit of 12, accompained by 2 heavy swordmen:

Anndd! the Bullry (?

Looking good! I especially like the reposed bull 'cavalry.'

Just the thing for Narnia-inspired wargaming: Calormenes!