"Deciding on retinue numbers in late-Medieval battles?" Topic

When deploying an English late-Medieval war game army how do you determine the number of retinues, and therefore flags and coat-of-arms, that you wish to display? For example, gaming Agincourt, would you confine yourself to the King and earls or would you have bannerets/knights? Are you the sort that thinks the more the merrier?

I have information of 'lesser' participants and their coats-of-arms at the Battle of Shrewsbury 1403 that I am considering painting up and including in a game but would like to know how others go about deciding on which participants to have.

Thanks in advance.

d'Ewell

Take the total size of the army (if known, or else an estimate), divide by the number of nobles (dukes, earls or barons – baronets and knights don't count). This will give you an average retinue size.

Are you talking about what and which heraldry to paint in a non 1-to-1 game? I think it depends on the rules. If the rules encourage deploying in battles, I'd use whomever lead that battle. For individual knights or MAA, I would use the heraldry of the major personalities, anyone else I can find, and then start making stuff up, in that order.

Damon.

Ah, perhaps I misread your OP. If you want to know the number of retinues in the army, then just count the nobles (dukes, earls or barons – baronets and knights don't count).

MajorB……

Not necessarily! There were many 'companies' of troops provided by a Captain under contract. These Captains were often not noblemen at all.

Not necessarily! There were many 'companies' of troops provided by a Captain under contract. These Captains were often not noblemen at all.

Are you referring to Free Companies?
link

If so they were not common in a late medieval English medieval army (of the WOTR). What such companies there were would have been foreign mercenaries and thus not part of a retinue owing allegiance to a lord.

Sorry, I was not clear. How low down the pecking order does one go in replicating the participants in some of the late-Medieval period battles?

I think MajorB has it if royals, earls, and barons are the only ones to display their banners/coat-of-arms in a retinue.

My interest was whether someone (a knight?) in, for example, Baron A's retinue would likely display his banner/coat-of-arms or would a Baron be the lowest rank to do so. Just to add some more variety to a war game army.

Additionally, can you confirm, would a Baron, forming part of an earls retinue, which formed part of a royal retinue, be entitled to display his b/coa?

I hope this is clearer. Thanks for your replies.

d'Ewell

My interest was whether someone (a knight?) in, for example, Baron A's retinue would likely display his banner/coat-of-arms or would a Baron be the lowest rank to do so. Just to add some more variety to a war game army.

You have to understand the way in which livery and maintenance (aka "bastard feudalism" ) worked. When a man took livery and maintenance from a lord, he agreed in a contract to provide military service, and wear the lord's livery in exchange for "maintenanace" – the lord's support in any legal situation. In some cases maintenance would also include accomodation and subsistence. A knight who was a member of a lord's retinue would therefore wear the lord's livery rather than his own (if he was entitled to any).
See link

Additionally, can you confirm, would a Baron, forming part of an earls retinue, which formed part of a royal retinue, be entitled to display his b/coa?

There was no hierarchical structure of retinues. A lord's retinue would not form part of a greater lord's retinue. Anyone wealthy and powerful enough would set up his own retinue.

The big problem in the WOTR was that a lord who was wealthy and powerful enough to set up his own retinue could "sell" his loyalty to whoever he wished but without any firm commitment. There are numerous examples of lords switching loyalties and changing sides – sometimes in the midst of battle.