"the problem of evil in spooky stories" Topic

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This is long, but witty and fun. It addresses issues very relevant to fantasy gaming and also to game design. It BEGINS with the question of why crucifixes don't work against modern vampires, and goes from there.

Frequent mentions of BUFFY and ANGEL, Narnia, and many other fantasy settings and characters and plots.

Starred so I'll come back and read it. :)

I dealt with -- or tried to deal with -- some of these issues in PRIDE OF LIONS. You can't really make a game of Moses versus Pharaoh at the Red Sea. You can game a Narnian battle only as long as Aslan isn't in it. (Scenario: You are in command of the Telmarine army trapped at the Fords of Beruna; to your rear are Peter and Caspian and the Narnian Army; holding the other end of the bridge is a little girl and her invisible friend -- God.) The requirements of the STORY are almost the opposite of the requirements for a good game.

but that is under the jurisdiction of the Great God Dagon, Lord of the Dark Waters and the Lower Chesapeake

AWESOME!

Now, at this point you may be thinking, dear reader, "Wow. Kate Beckensdale playing a sexy vampiress sure looks sexually attractive to me when she wears shiny skintight black leather. But I also like Milla Jovovich playing a sexy vampiress in skintight red leather." In which case you are the perfect audience for modern vampire stories, and you occupy the same sub-basement-level of popular culture as I do.

I have come to -- believe is too strong -- to SPECULATE that in a world in which Evil manifested in really obvious ways -- e.g. vampires -- that the God of ethical monotheism would likewise be more visible in combating that evil. Which is to say, I suppose, that the only reason there are not REAL Vatican Hit Squads is because there are not real vampires.

My favorite part of the essay is where Wright speculates that a modern monster hunter might carry a COEXIST bumper sticker so as to display whichever holy symbol will work.

There are reasons why crosses aren't being used today to fight Vampires.

But to go into them is to risk heading back to the Dawghouse.

Wait there are not Vatican Hit Squads and Men in Black? I am shocked.

The requirements of the STORY are almost the opposite of the requirements for a good game.

This is my ongoing rant to folks who keep wanting to make RPGs play like books/movies… not understanding that an RPG's function is not to tell stories… the story that gets told later.

Awesome read!

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The church still trains for such things. Makes sense, if they believed in them 2000 years ago, they should in theory still believe in them now. I'm pretty sure my MiL would fail the ducking stool!

From the Wikipedia article on John C. Wright:

At the age of 42, Wright converted from atheism to Christianity citing a profound religious experience with visions of the "Virgin Mary, her son, and His Father-not to mention various other spirits and ghosts over a period of several days" and claiming that prayers he made were answered. In 2008, he converted to the Roman Catholic Church, of which he approvingly stated: "If Vulcans had a church, they'd be Catholics."

I guess that illustrates where he's coming from.

I disagree Space Monkey. I DMed for several years every Saturday night. It was all about story for us, which is why I made up all the adventures and campaigns. The several guys in my group didn't even bother rolling dice, leaving that to me. They just loved being a part of my stories, which had acts. Note, I eventually became a literature prof. :-) But you may play games as you like.

Well, yeah:

On the other hand, if you are writing a story where you are trying to spook your reader out, set the tale in a universe where only Crucifixes drive back vampires, and, just to make it extra spooky, have the creaking old Romanian peasant grammy (or worse yet, Irish) be dead right about everything. NOTHING freaks people out quicker than the idea that the Catholics might be, you know, right about anything. (You cannot have them right about everything, of course, because (a) then it is not fiction and (b) rioting Leftwing zealots will burn down the theater in the name of Toleration, which is their name for the Great God Dagon, see above.)

That sort of gives it away. Of course, as a Protestant I'd question whether the RCs are right about EVERYTHING. And if i ever face a vampire it will be with a PLAIN cross, not a crucifix.

Btw, Wright's also a pretty good fantasy writer, a Nebula Award finalist.

In Fright Night 1, it was faith is what makes a cross work not the symbol itself.

CP, yes, and one can see a lot of that approach in Stafford's HEROQUEST -- which never worked for me, though I love Glorantha -- and I strongly prefer RUNEQUEST, with its strong emphasis on mythology but not necessarily stressing storytelling.

Btw, I was struck by Wright's comment that modern sensibilities have drained a lot of the grittiness from paganism:

To add insult to injury, you writers who are cooperating with the Conspiracy, should make sure to make it so that the symbol does not draw on any real power or real authority outside of the personal self-affirming self-hood of the badass leather-skirt clad heroine, so that is it is HER faith, and not the power of Gaea or Isis (or whatever) who is abolishing the bad spirits.

That makes it nicely All About You, and nothing bigger or better than You need ever come on stage: none of the things honest nature-worshipers actually worship, the sublime things showing the frightening grandeur of nature and the littleness of man; Wind and Welkin, Oak and Ash and Sacred Fire, or the Never-Setting Stars that shine on the Land of the Young beyond the Western Seas where no man goes.

No, have your heroine use her pagan ‘faith symbol' of some safely nondescript New Age description, without venturing too near into the waters of real paganism, which are deeper than you know, and have strange under-currents sometimes leading pagans to other and richer and truer faiths. It would truly be awkward in a story if your heroine was blasting vampires with her mistletoe of Freyr or somesuch, and Brunhilde the Valkyrie showed up to kill her and make her an Einheinjahr-ess or Shield-maiden in the Last Battle, so that she could die at the side of Odin, father of gods and men, when Fenrir eats him alive, and tramples the golden roof of Valhalla to ruin: those old fashioned notions of dying while defending the ashes of your fathers and the altars of your gods do not have much emotional sway over the "You've Come A Long Way, Baby!" generation.

A survey of the modern vampire literature and movies is dispiriting. We have not returned to the level of the pagans: we should be so lucky. We are far below it. Even the idol worshipers were not so idolatrous as to worship themselves.

Gray Ghost, sure, and the vamp in SALEM'S LOT makes the same point to the priest when his faith fails.

@CPBelt,
That's great, you telling stories to your pals. It's just not my, or anyone's I know, idea of what a roleplaying game is… what you're describing is more like Toy Theater… which was a fine and popular hobby back in the day.

Here are some vampire stories I have enjoyed in the last year or two, with comments relating to Wright's thesis:

John Lambshead's COMMISSION stories -- modern London -- with evil vamps and at least one heroine with a pagan power source -- which is perhaps a bit under stressed in the story. No real Christianity, but a lot of power drawn from ancient Egypt via the British Museum.

Mark Henwick's BITE BACK series -- VERY good -- which finesses the issue, as the vamps are not undead and have the same moral choices anyone else does.

Paul Leone's VATICAN VAMPIRE HUNTERS, which is straight Vatican hilt squad action, with all the church's liturgy and ritual rolled in. Good action scenes, though.

The first comment under Wright's essay, at the link, and Wright's reply, about redemption, is another interesting point. I have suspected Joss Wheedon of being a closet Christian, but I am assured he is not. (Buffy is pretty clearly a Christ-figure at various points -- "She saved the world -- a lot.") But whatever Wheedon's religious position, he is very much about redemption: see, e.g., Angel and Spike and Faith, etc. etc. But I think Wright's point is well taken: modern readers and viewers WANT stories of redemption, but there has to be something one is redeemed FROM -- evil -- and that in turn requires at some level and to some degree that the person-in-need-of-redemption be GUILTY or CONDEMNED or WICKED or such. Which judgement is often anathema to the modern mind.

Excellent comedy vampire movie, The Fearless Vampire Hunters, demonstrates the religious aspect nicely. Alfie Bass plays a Jewish vampire – when a crucifix is held up to him he just grins and carries on. That's the point here – many 'horrors' are based on a particular religion, and it is the religious mindset of the monster that counts rather than the mindset of the 'victim.' Traditional demons are Christian in origin so can be countered by Christian artifacts.

Of course, that (very common) understanding of religious symbols -- that their power comes from an individual's subjective faith or belief, rather than from any objective and external supernatural power -- is very typical of modern thought in general.

To which the devout will reply (echoing Flannery O'Conner's wisecrack about the bread and wine in Communion -- but it applies to crucifixes and other crosses just as well): "Well, if it is just a symbol, then to hell with it."

I tend to fall into the "faith of the wielder" clause, personally.

Heck, Marvel comics had a fun romp with the X-Men versus Dracula, where one of the kids tries to fend him off with a cross (that she apparently doesn't believe in), and then the Jewish girl fends Vlad off with her personal Star of David.

But personally, I gotta question why Vlad Tepes, son of Dracul, would be driven off by a cross to begin with. The Tepes family crest has a cross on it! (Not to mention that the Romanians still practically worship him as a savior of the country)

But the points about the needs of storytelling do stand. It's what made me so disappointed by the first Hellboy movie. You set up this massive, Lovecraftian Elder thing, and then kill it with a bandolier of holy-everything grenades?!? copout.

But I think Wright's point is well taken: modern readers and viewers WANT stories of redemption, but there has to be something one is redeemed FROM -- evil -- and that in turn requires at some level and to some degree that the person-in-need-of-redemption be GUILTY or CONDEMNED or WICKED or such. Which judgement is often anathema to the modern mind.

I dunno, there are some pretty easy ways to establish someone as damned. Did you watch the Blade TV series? With that teenage female boss vamp cooing to a baby, "Oh, I could just eat you up!" Those Boko Haram types seem to be working real hard to achieve a similar state.

But personally, I gotta question why Vlad Tepes, son of Dracul, would be driven off by a cross to begin with. The Tepes family crest has a cross on it! (Not to mention that the Romanians still practically worship him as a savior of the country)

Because the vampire is not Vlad. He's (it's?) a demon wearing Vlad. Let's go to that canonical source, Buffy the Vampire Slayer Excepting Vampires with a Soul, who co-exist, vampires are just demons wearing a skin and personality.

If we're going to assume that the vampire is a demon wearing Vlad, then both the Cross and the Star of David should drive it away (same God). I'd also expect the various symbols of Solomon to be effective.

There are varying reports from the non-Christian nations as to the effectiveness of their local faiths in driving out Judeo-Christian demons. Shinto exorcists seem to have success regardless of the nature of the demon getting punted back to Hell, for example, but some of the African native religions don't do so well.

So, if a religious symbol doesn't work against a vampire, maybe use a 40mm grenade launcher, or a shotgun loaded with garlic cloves, instead…?

"that the only reason there are not REAL Vatican Hit Squads is because there are not real vampires."

Are you sure they don't exist?

:-)

The priest I know assured me that they do not exist.

I always took it that the power of a religious symbol relied on the faith of the vampire/demon, not the person wielding it.
If I were writing up such stories I'd have them indifferent to such trinkets. I'm not all that interested in stories of redemption… except on a very personal level… which might look like corruption/evil to any bystanders.

SM, there's even scriptural backing for that: "You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! " (James 2:19)

Jim Butcher handles this concept fairly well, with even his main character, the wizard Harry Dresden, struggling with understanding exactly what it is that makes faith work against evil, and facing the fact that the God he is reluctant to get to know has both immense power over evil and is unquestionably good, yet whose decision to act or not remains unpredictable and unfathomable. Of particular interest are the three Knights of the Cross who serve God as earthly warriors (paladins, in effect) against "the Fallen" and other evil nasties (like vampires). Michael Carpenter is exceptionally well written, serving as the voice of faith in the series in contrast to Harry's more indecisive agnosticism. Butcher very much captures the faith and nobility of this Knight, creating a character who is indeed exactly what a Christian (and a Paladin) should be. It's both thoughtful, insightful and profound in a series that is largely intended merely to be pure entertainment. I don't know Butcher's faith, but I give him great credit for both respecting mine and respecting the classic tropes of vampire fiction and mythology in his work.

"A survey of the modern vampire literature and movies is dispiriting. We have not returned to the level of the pagans: we should be so lucky. We are far below it. Even the idol worshipers were not so idolatrous as to worship themselves."

FOMB. Even if they didn't know it.

"But I think Wright's point is well taken: modern readers and viewers WANT stories of redemption, but there has to be something one is redeemed FROM -- evil -- and that in turn requires at some level and to some degree that the person-in-need-of-redemption be GUILTY or CONDEMNED or WICKED or such. Which judgement is often anathema to the modern mind."

Strictly speaking, this is simply due to the Atoner (or just an ornery loser who has assumed the role because the writer is a bigger loser) being overdone over the last 50-odd years in action and detective media, as well as supers and fantasy and…..

"You cannot have them right about everything, of course, because (a) then it is not fiction and (b) rioting Leftwing zealots will burn down the theater in the name of Toleration, which is their name for the Great God Dagon, see above."

And then the courts couldn't make them pay compensation to all those victims even though the claims were conclusively in said court to be true.

"but these days to put a cross in a vampire tale would be interpreted as a studied insult against the Non-Christian segment of the book-buying public."

Bloke sees a conspiracy against Christianity and doesn't see where we're going with this?

Parzival, I think I need to give the Dresden novels a try.

Amazon Prime just added TRUE BLOOD, the HBO television based on the Sookie novels I've seen but never read. Pretty good stuff, though as rough and graphic as DEADWOOD or such. Lots of blood and gore and nekkid sex. And with a pretty obvious political/social agenda with vamps as the new gays. And the portrayal of Christians is typically warped.

However, it does a good job of showing the utter depravity of humanity, so when some modicum of grace and mercy and compassion creeps in, you do appreciate it.

Doc, credit the OFM for getting me hooked on 'em. The Knights of the Cross don't show up for a couple of books, and when Michael first does you wonder "Who the heck is this guy, and how does he know Dresden?" (My first thought was that I'd missed a book in the sequence.) But he fits into the story so quickly that it's more of an in media res thing.
Don't expect Sunday School stories-- it's definitely an adult, hard-boiled fantasy-horror-mystery series, and sometimes more "adult" than is strictly necessary for the tale (though not excessively so). But the characters are terrific, there's a lot of wry humor, and the plots are always interesting and subtle enough to keep you guessing. Besides, you gotta love a guy who stares into the face of a homicidal demon and quotes Bugs Bunny at it.

chironex, I don't quite follow your last point. Where do you think we're going with this?

I will defer to the more Scripturally-aware folks for the exact line, but isn't there a story in the New Testament about how someone attempted to drive a demon out of a person only to have the demon say, "Him I know, and Peter. But who are YOU to command me thus?"

If I'm remembering the story correctly, doesn't that give a Biblical example of the power of a cross/other holy symbol being partially based on the wielders faith?

@Doc McB: Read the books, they're much better than the TV series. The series didn't go very far in establishing just how much raw power Harry can wield when he decides to take the gloves off and throw down.

Lion, yes, Acts 19: But also some of the Jewish exorcists, who went from place to place, attempted to name over those who had the evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, "I adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preaches." 14Seven sons of one Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this. 15And the evil spirit answered and said to them, "I recognize Jesus, and I know about Paul, but who are you?…" Which the author of Acts, Luke, probably thought was pretty funny.

And there's plenty of other scripture that is relevant. The Ark of the Covenant was deadly to touch, and the Israelites kicked butt until they took it for granted, where upon they lost. So their attitude led to God teaching them a lesson.

A Christian (THIS Christian, anyway) would say that all power ultimately comes from God, but He allows us to participate through, e.g., prayer, and also by faith, which can tap into VAST power. It seems that the beliefs of both the white hats and the black hats can affect an outcome -- but of course ultimately the outcome is by God's will.

So there can be a lot of tension and suspense in a story about these matters, and maybe even in a game. Tricky to write rules for, though.

This is a much deeper article than one normally comes across on TMP. Thanks, doc.

Now, personally, I tend to leave the supernatural out of my settings and writing (and thus my gaming). It is absolutely there, but on an unseen character-interaction level that is simply not seen in the average orbital fighter duel. You don't see what motivates some folks, but again, it's there. The iconography, not so much. And for Pete's sake there are NO 'Coexist' stickers. Those would get you arrested on a lot of planets…

And yes, I do subscribe to belief in the 'Conspiracy'.

You are all of you not looking at the case in the wright way.

You have to read Phillip Hallie's "Cruelty." But you won't and if you do you won't get it and probably can't face it.

1. allie goes right to the heart of it and defines "cruelty" as "smashing a life." That is taking someone's life and smashing it. That is destroying the happiness, visiting pain and suffering on it and demoralizing and degrading it, and in the end snuffing it out." Note that Hallie does not get into "good and evil" and leaves all moral qualities aside. He keeps it at the most basic physical level which sees pain and suffering as evil, and further, DOES NOT FALL INTO THE UTILITARIAN TRAP of saying good is the sabsence of evil. Halie is not concerned with good in "Cruetly" but in other places he says that happiness is "enjoyment and pleasure" in life. Leave that alone for the moment. And don't bother arguing with it. you'd be wrong.

Now.. for the real fire…

2.Hallie says that all cruelty comes about because of a "power difference." It is impossible to be cruel to someone unless you have power over them-- as Hallie says in many ways – you must control them, you must remove them, sequester them (Consider the Snidely Whipsnade" cliche of "Now I have you my pretty!" you must have power over them. You must control them. If you do not you cannot be fruel to them.

3. He goes further to say "that if you have a person in such a position relative to you, then not only COULD you be cruel to them, that you MUST be cruel to them, it is inevitable that you will be cruel to them, you MUST be cruel to them no matter how good or wonderful your intentions are. He says that this is inevitable that you will become this way because if you have power over them then they are seenby you as less than them, as something that is dependent on you to protect them, and therefore -- contemptable. As you are human, they then, if you have power over them must then be less than human, incapable of standing on their own, of being full persons, and therefore less than human- sub-human, non-human, and we cannot be inhumane to that which is less than human.

4. And thus you can see in each and every vampire story the vampire has power over ordinary humans. There is a part of them that we cannot match, we cannot combat, we cannot struggle except through long and weary dances of ritual myth, and enchangment, which is, acquiring the power to face the power, that is acquire not the same power but a contravening power.

5. By the way you can see this in Harry Potter as well. All the magicking people have powers "the muggles" do not . All of them also will be (regardless if Voldemort takes over) wishing to oppress, control and destroy the non-magicking. O
People in Hogwarts are therefore no different than being in a school for vampires.

6. Women like Vampires because they can see themselves in eternal stasis at the height of their powers. Eternally gorgeous, eternally sexually attractive, eternally able to manipulate and mesmerize members of the opposite sex to dominate, control, and-- feed off them. That is-- they wish to be part of the "power imbalance" the power differential, and this especially strong in women as in real life THEY ALREADY ARE ON THE WRONG SIDE OF THE POWER-IMBALANCE, THE POWER DIFFERENTIAL.

7. Men fall for it because it they desire dominance over females, but they also desire it over other men. Power in vampire stories is a continual struggle against the bullies, to be so powerful as to not be bullied by other males, and at the same time to be be free from bullying BY bulling other males. Don't believe me? Why are the Three Stooges so popular among males? Because it is a slapstick and caricatureof male-male relationships, and the reasonf or their success is that even Moe winds up on the short end of the stick in all the episodes. Dominant and overbearing as he may be, he's still a stooge.

See, it's all the power differential, the imbalance of power.

9. And now we come to thetruly superior male, the most dominnant male of all who tells all people, male or female, from the mountain top to love one another, do good to one other, to be simple, peacemakers, to seek God and Good, to ignore the self but live for others, to love each other, to be quiet and humble and meek, to in fact completely uniwhs the power differential, to completely reject it, renounce it. Here, he who has all power submists to all evil, and suffers for it, but triumphs in the end. Christ from the mount says in effect, when he says the last shall be first, the first shall be last, and he who would be the lord of all must be the servant of all, exhibits a power that is far and away superior to any evil can muster. THAT is what the crucifix symbolizes (and most do not want to see), not the salvation to heaven, but the real way to have real power HERE NOW, ON EARTH.

It is the power of love, the power of caring for each other, protecting each other. He is saying if you want to be like me, then you can have NO money, and NO power.

This is wonderful for Christ, who was the son of God, but we are just carpenters sons? How can we do this.

But we do. Day in, and Day out, we don't need silver bullets or crucifixes, or magical swords or the mumbo-jumbo of ritual. What we have to do is be like him, self sacraficial for those in our power and be kind. This is the key, this is the element.

By the way, Christ is in Harry Potter. Do you know who he is?

By the way if you think it's all a myth, recall that when Pope John Paul II came to New York at that time no one would pay two bits to see Bill Clinton Ride a Bicycle, but they had to reaffle off by lottery to the carious parishes of the United States the tickets to fill Madison Garden.

You want to see power- THAT my friends is REAL power.

And if you think John Paul II was something, just WAIT till the present Pope gets his sea-legs.

And if you want any more proof that the guy from Galilee was the son of God who talked to a few shepherds and fishermen by the sea-shore and hung around with prostitutes and tax collecters and was killed by the authorities, then it would be wasted on you.

Want proof? The next time you have the opportunity to be cruel, to be mean and crushing to some life in you charge, renounce it, and as it were "wash the feet of the leper." Be kind, tolerant, and helpful. You'll hate it of course, but after a while…. Bless those who curse you, love your enemies, pray for those who abuse you and spitefully use you….

Powerful words.

OK I re-read the article.

I don't see an argument in it.

When Wizards of the Coast was working on 4th Edition D&D, they put out a few teaser books with concept art and ideas. While the Teiflings had pretty well-defined powers and a noted attraction/popularity, the Aasimar (or however the heck you spell that), their angelic counterparts, didn't have that major following.

The writer called it the 'Ave Maria' problem, and drew the comparison to Disney's Fantasia. You go from this visually and acoustically impressive scene of the demon on Bald Mountain to a barely-animated-at-all scene of a candlelight procession. In order to make the good guys seem like they're a serious threat to the baddies, the good guys need to have something that will let the fight at the level of the baddies!

For some reason, western storytellers have really turned angels into wimps.

No, they're NOT cute little babies with wings.

Angels are the Messengers of God, speaking with His voice. When the angels appeared to the shepherds, the shepherd's first thought wasn't 'oh, how beautiful'. The shepherd's first thought was "oh [expletives deleted]! The last time Angels appeared around here was when they utterly destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah! What are they going to destroy this time?!?"

"For some reason, western storytellers have really turned angels into wimps."

In my long years of reading, and viewing TV and movies, I've found that most heroes come across as bland characters, and the bad guys have much more interesting personalities. Maybe developing interesting good guys is too hard for most writers to do. (Can't really blame the actors, they have to work with what they're given…. ;-)

Dear Zephyr1

Been going on for a long time. The best operatic characters are the villains, everyone writes the stories for them. Star Wars is the story of Darth Vader, not Luke Skywalker, Don Giovanni, Siegfried, Tosca, the tale is the story of the Villain.

Lion n the Stars, you miss the point of the juxta-position of "ight on Bald Maountain" and "Ave Maria." The rule of the former is only temporary, it must disappear at the merest tolling of the bell

The problem with the angels as you wish them is that they would be indistinguishable from the fallen angels. If that were the case then God would be evil. Much the same with all the operas above. The super-hero, even the good super hero is no less a danger to the people around him than the evil anti-hero. Siegfried in "The Ring" the fearless, valiant hearted hero creates more death and destruction around him than the vile Hagen or Alberich. He totally destroys the one good character the only admirable one in the whole cycle- Brunnhilda.

The problem in Star wars is not countered by the Jedi-- it IS the Jedi. People with super powers are too dangerous to leave laying around, even if they are on our side.

That's why I like the clones.

"The Prince of Darkness grim,
we tremble not for him.
His rage we can endure,
For lo, his doom is sure.
One little Word can fell him.