"Troublemaker Gogo Campaign." Topic

Troublemaker launches its third Gogo campaign to fund some imperial infantry, Ork vehicles and walkers and Imperial Titans in 6 mm

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Amicalement
Armand

:-)

Very cool!

Glad you like them my friend.

Amicalement
Armand

This is stupid. They still have not delivered on the first Indiegogo, (they are 10 months late) and they are launching a third?

Stay away from this company.

TMG is carried by Exodus Wars as well … however, I've dealt with the owner of TMG many times and have had no problem … I'll let him know …

Hi Blooddave,

The plastics from our first campaign were delayed, as plastics often are, in our case by the fact that no-one has done 6mm plastics in 20 years and a lot of skills had to be rediscovered. However the production run of the plastics is now on a ship in the south China sea on it's way towards us for deliveries.

In the mean time, we have delivered all of the metal models from our first campaign, and all the models from our second campaign .

So our current campaign status looks like:
- campaign 1 – all metal models delivered, plastic tooling finished and dispatches of plastics & hybrid kits to proceed shortly.

- campaign 2 – metals only, all models delivered

- campaign 3 – metals only, in progress

This campaign is for metals only, and as with our second campaign we anticipate zero delays with delivery.

We won't be doing another plastics campaign until after we have the plastics from the first campaign delivered.

Hope that clears up the idea that we might be unreliable. If you have further concerns please do not hesitate to ask questions.

Your stretch goals and 'Novan Elites' looks suspiciously copyrighted-y. I understand that you miss Epic, but why not make your own 6mm game instead of stealing from Games Workshop. Do you not anticipate any sort of legal ramifications…? It would certainly put me off, if I were a potential backer.

stealing from Games Workshop

Thats is a bit harsh and a bit of a stretch… I think in a court of law you would have a hard time proving that, especially at 6mm … Of course if you don't like the designs … for whatever reasons … don't buy …

Our designs of armoured infantry use no major design features in common with games workshop designs.

The scope of what Copyright covers is quite specific, for example the US legal system has ruled that GW's Space Marine shpulderpad shape is not complex enough to qualify for copyright protection – not that our shoulderpad design is the same anyway (it's different in shape, proportion and angles) but that's just an example of how making one sculpt of an armoured space warrior doesn't stop everyone else from being able to sculpt their own kinds of armoured space warriors using similar common sci-fi tropes (armour, helmets, guns).

We anticipate no legal issues. Should any other issues arise, like our company director getting run over and dying, we'd simply return the various pledges.

It's not harsh at all. It's beyond clear that the campaign is meant to fund 6mm scale versions of Games Workshop's Space Marines, Orks, Death Korps of Krieg and Titans.

I understand that a lot of miniatures companies have been making 'totally not Space Marines' for a while, but that isn't really an excuse. 6mm gaming is a minority, and by making 'not-Epic' instead of making your own game you've kind of dead-ended yourself. This wont bring in any new 6mm gamers, just those who regret binning their old Epic armies.

If people want Space Marines, Titans, etc we believe they can be found on eBay, where model-for-model we believe they will be cheaper than our (distinct) sculpts.

That being the case we suggest eBay as the first and only destination for those who want to play "Epic".

Thanks for your feedback, we will bear your comments in mind. We would also appreciate feedback on our rulebook when we make it available; we will be putting online soon.

our (distinct) sculpts

Pull the other one, mate!

Here, in case you are completely oblivious to your own theft, I've made you a patronising breakdown:

Here for bigger: i.imgur.com/nYsotM6.jpg

No offense, but GW ain't exactly unique either.

There were Space Knights before Space Marines, Krieg troops ever since WWI, Aliens before Tyranids, Orcs from Tolkien and other sources, etc. It's just that GW has been iterating for 25+ years on the 'original' designs.

It ain't theft, it's 'inspired' by… Aka. "As close as we can get to the original without getting our arses sued off."

These are made for people who want to play Epic, but GW/FW can't be bothered to produce the mini's themselves anymore. Prices on ebay for 40k Epic have skyrocketed, if this can relief the Epic 'itch' for folks, I'm all for it!

Oh No! GW has copyright on the (stick) human form…

Getting Troublemaker to admit that the designs were 'inspired' by GW designs is not going to happen, even if there is no legal trouble, they don't want to invite it.

Come on, that's just moronic. Whilst GW have taken inspiration and in some cases copied some IPs they have not blatantly ripped off an entire range and then tried to pass if off as their own 'distinct sculpts.'

This is just poor. I'm all for a good 6mm sci-fi game but make your own. Even if GW no longer support epic and even if they don't care that this a carbon copy of chunks of their range have some pride and create your own models. At the very least don't try to pass this off as your work.

Yeah, Tyranids and Aliens are a good example of how something can be 'inspired by' and not 'a direct copy of'. Also they are entirely different mediums…

As I said, thanks for the feedback.

In a few cases we'll be making some changes to our sculpts to change some features that are accidentally similar to the sculpts you've listed. We wouldn't want to be too similar to extant models, and again, if people want Epic models I'm sure they can be had cheaper on a model-for-model basis on eBay.

So we'd encourage people who want to play Epic to buy models on eBay as their models will be GW sculpts and will be cheaper than our models.

Most of time though, it's a matter of the requirements of the form – our armoured infantry for example are fine in our eyes as the similarities you're pointing out are minor (having a cut out in lower leg of the armour to allow the foot to rotate is a basic requirement of an armoured leg, for example, and our sculpt's cut out looks larger to my eye). The look of a missile launcher or a heat weapon has been established in sci-fi for a long time, etc.

Again, thanks for the feedback, hopefully you'll prefer the sculpts after we've modified them to appease your concerns.

accidentally similar

Pmsl

It wouldn't be accidental now you've pointed out some similarities, if we let the sculpts go to print unfixed. :-)

Thankyou for the feedback, we will happily address these concerns.

Korellian, Alchemist, if you don't want to get involved in this crowdfundoing … don't … There are other 6mm sci-fi companies out there for you to buy from …

I don't need you to tell me what to buy or not. Nor to point out that there are other companies that make 6mm products. I was voicing an opinion. Something I am entirely entitled to do.

Yeah, Tyranids and Aliens are a good example of how something can be 'inspired by' and not 'a direct copy of'. Also they are entirely different mediums…

And the Orks and most of the Imperial Guard armies? The original IG looked like straight rips from the security forces of Paranoia (which GW was also doing some stuff for around the same time. The Rhino was almost a straight rip from the m113a, so much so that when they build a live size Rhino for a Dawn of War promotion the used a m113a with very little modification.

Trying to defend GW while at the same time 'attacking' Troublemaker Games is a little hypocritical. It ain't original. But they aren't the first nor the last.

GW/Citadel pretty much ripped the entire line of D&D, when they lost the license, for WFB. GW/Citadel got a whole lot more creative when they got bigger and had the audience and the money for it. Small companies who want to be big companies when they grow up need to go after the money. THIS is where the money's at, don't blame the company, blame the people buying it.

I might take a look at the plastic sprues when they are available, but most of the other sculpts hold very little interest for me, I find their vehicle sculpts a little to blocky or to steampunky. I don't give a rat's behind that it's an Epic clone though.

They do have an interesting plastic sprue for 6mm Ghotic building.

ps. Somehow people seem to think that 'original' stuff is good/better then iterating/cloning existing stuff. It really isn't as a general rule, there are a few exceptions, all the rest either fail horribly in the end or muddle along at a slow pace…

"This wont bring in any new 6mm gamers"- Alchemist

Yes it will I am one!

"Even if GW no longer support epic"- Korellian

This is why I don't give a DAMN about caterwauling over GW copyrights. They won't support it then let someone else step up and fill the void. I hope GW comes to its senses and starts releasing Epic scale again. Just voicing my opinion as I am entitled to do…

Troublemaker Games keep doing what you are doing, change the sculpts slightly if you have to avoid the copyright issues. I need 6 mm infantry of multiple types and EBAY is to sporadic of a place to find what I need.

Korellian
I don't need you to tell me what to buy or not. Nor to point out that there are other companies that make 6mm products. I was voicing an opinion. Something I am entirely entitled to do.

As was I … it works both ways … Do you even play 6mm sci-fi ?

Agree with you completely D/G, of course, on all points … And Filling the void … TMG, Exodus Wars, DRM, CinC, Microworld, Onslaught, Angel Barracks, Khurasan, etc., etc. … @ Korellian & Alchemist- I've been playing Epic since '90 and have been involved on line on the #1 Epic/6mm Sci-fi gaming/modeling site – Tactical Command link , since about '95 … You don't need to tell me anything about Epic or 6mm Sci-fi models and gaming … been there did that. Are either of you Epic or 6mm sci-fi players, BTW ? Please don't rain on our parade and we won't on your's …

Legion 4, meet Wall, Wall meet Legion 4's head

Rinse and repeat.

Indeed …