"My Open Letter to Tango Haters" Topic

Dear Fellow TMPers,

I know none of you reading this actually hate Tango. That's just the other guys. You yourself just post to be one of the cool gang, to be in with the crowd, up with the hunt.

You're not really a bully, and deep down you'd feel a little empty if Tango was actually driven from our little community. But the pressure to conform is enourmous…

I know, I know…

But consider this – what if nearly everyone who has a pop at Tango feels the same way? What if, actually, before this whole thing gained such nasty momentum, there at the core only 1 or 2 tiny minded haters at the bottom of this?

What a difference it might make if you thought twice before jumping on the anti-Tango bandwagon everytime someone posts more bitchiness?

Starved of mass support, those individuals might start to be shown for the ridiculous petty bullies they are…

And Tango could continue posting his useful and informative links without be spammed by all these anti-Tango posts?

And if all the above reasoning doesn't resonate with you, did you know he was a Veteran of the Falklands/Malvinas War of 1982? Doesn't that deserve a little respect? Isn't it great to have an active member who actually has combat experience – there aren't that many combat vets on here we can afford to single them out and attempt to humiliate them.

And if that doesn't count with you, think on this – Yes at the moment you have added your howling to the pack, and it feels good, it feels safe – but who will be next?

And although I seriously doubt it, if you are seriously somehow genuinely troubled by having to scan through Tango's multiple posts on what is, do I have to remind you, an open forum that is dependent on members posts (!?!) then please consider the advice given on multiple occasions to tailor your board choices!

Kind Regards,

Sparker

Oh good lord, could you be any more over the top? All 99% of us ever said was that we wanted him to post less at a time when he was posting 20 items in a row or more multiple days per week. If that is bullying, then you need a new dictionary.

If that is bullying, then you need a new dictionary.

As I've tried to make clear, I don't think it is for the majority of chaps in your camp – I actually doubt there are more than 1 or 2 individuals actually consciously trying to drive Tango away. But in a sense, they are bullies, in that they have singled out an individual because his pattern of behaviour, though completely within the rules, is different, and they are trying to establish some sort of pathetic power base by whipping up feeling against him.

And if they succeed, well, by golly, you'll see some bullying then!

Huzzar

I don't see what difference being a veteran of the Falklands War 1982 makes to anything under discussion. Why is this fact trotted out? I am sure there are other veterans who use the TMP page and they do not carry on like Tango does.

I had thought your post was going to be reasonable despite its title (I have read all of the recent posts concerning Tango and it is only his supporters who use terms like "haters") but I am afraid it contributes nothing to the debate.

This whole debate is stupid. The Anti Tangos are unreasonable. The Pro Tangos are just as bad. Starting numerous threads for and against makes you look like school children shouting. You are not helping the issue, you are only inflaming it. Stop.

Interestingly, it appears Tango HAS cut down his posting. He only posted appx 10 items recently. I am glad he is not going away, but I am also glad he has turned it down a notch. I do not want him to quit--he finds some interesting stuff.

don't see what difference being a veteran of the Falklands War 1982 makes to anything under discussion. Why is this fact trotted out? I am sure there are other veterans who use the TMP page and they do not carry on like Tango does.

There are many other vets on TMP, and we are not as prolific as Tango, to be sure. Would that we were!

But seriously, if his behaviour, though completely within the rules, annoys you, you don't see why you should maybe cut him a little more slack because of his war service?

Lets try an anology. You're on a bus or coach, and sitting a couple of seats in front of you someone is talking loudly in an odd tone of voice. It grates. Then by some means or other you divine that he's a Vet. Doesn't that make you sit back and relax some? Maybe he's like that because he has pressures and needs that you couldn't possibly fathom because you haven't been where he's been, seen what he's seen?

Most people I know would respond in that way, its just common decency to give people who've given a lot themselves a little slack, a little gratitude…

And I am still staring at almost a thousand painted 28mm figures that I am unable to bring myself to base because I have become as indecisive (about basing scheme) as a four-year old at an ice cream parlor.

Sparker

Well done.

KAM

I'm with Broglie on this.
DID our friend actually serve in a war which brought no honour to Agentina?? I've heard the tale several times and would like to see the evidence (unit, rank, commander, veterans association….anything that might lend credence to this). Also that he's a member of the legal profession in Buenos Aires. Not a sign of that in the records. Why is that?
Perhaps the man himself might like to enlighten us.
Il peut meme le faire en francais, puisque c'est sa langue maternelle, parait-il…ou en espanol, como quiera…
Feel free to jump in Tango. Go on, I DARE you…
How many times do we have to say this? It's not the guy, it's his spamming!

Sparker, agree

TMP is rapidly turning into a Bullying zone, and that has what has been stopping me from choosing to become a member

I am sorry Sparker. I do not see that being a war veteran makes any difference in this case. I see from your profile that you have served in the military so perhaps you are more sympathetic on that account. There are many ways of serving your country.

All 99% of us ever said was that …

I love it. You are trying to claim not only the moral high ground but the statistical high ground as well.

DID our friend actually serve in a war which brought no honour to Agentina?? I've heard the tale several times and would like to see the evidence (unit, rank, commander, veterans association…

Good Lord. Do you demand to see proof that *I* was a KMart Security manager? That I was an AutoCAD tool designer for 10+ years? That I currently sell Comcast?
YOU SIR, are the prime example of a "hater". Grow up.

Let me be frank. (Even though my name is John.) I too get slightly peeved at Armand's "Boobies" posts. Few of them are any good. I just roll myy eyes, and at thev times when he just reposts the days Battlefrone news.
However, I know bullying when I see it, and I follow Pastor Niemoller on this one. People stood by me in 2011, and I stand by Tango/Armand in this.
Is it all bout me? Yes and no, if you follow my Niemoller example.

So Cazador, you are calling my friend Tango a liar, an imposter?

See this is how the damage begins – I don't think you would challenge anyone else on their claims of Service. However because Tango has become a target, its now legitimate to dehumanise him, to call him out on things you wouldn't dare to challenge others on… very sad.

a war which brought no honour to Argentina

It certainly didn't bring any honour to the politicians who started it! But that shouldn't reflect on the Veterans who were called upon to Serve by their country. In the case of Argentina, I believe without any choice in the matter…

And for the record, some Argentinian units fought hard and bravely. Those British Army battlefield tour guides I have had the privliedge to be guided by certainly have nothing but the deepest respect for the Argentinian Fallen whose graves and memorials they tend…

I don't know if you have military Service yourself, but generally the Governments that start wars don't go around to each and every Soldier Sailor and Airmen and check if its OK with them before going to war – it would be quite time consuming….

PS – Hi John, missed your post, and I sense we are trying to articulate the same thing. Oh well, better in stereo!

Hi Broglie,

There are many ways of serving your country.

Of course. But none quite so demanding in my view. Few other professions retire their best and brightest early with missing limbs or unhealed minds, not to forget those who don't return at all. (Not that I am personally claiming a raw deal, I had the best 25 years of my life in my country's uniform, and never experience someone shooting at me directly!)

But my point is, on a board about Wargaming, quite apart from the respect due, in most people's opinion, to Veterans, someone who has actually 'seen the elephant' should be particularly valued.

Not to say they should be given extra priviledges, and no-one is asking that for Tango. Merely that they shouldn't be singled out for unusual, but legal, behaviour, that many find useful and constructive.

Thank you for your support; godentag, Zargon, Captain Canada, Munster and the illustrious JOFM.

An unpleasant subject, but truly now is the time to stand up and be counted!

Hi John,

I was waiting for someone to come up with that analogy.

Hi Sparker,

No…read carefully. I'm merely asking for evidence that lots of others seem to take for granted. Claiming such a thing surely should not entail automatic slack. Moreover, surely any such claim which turmed out not to be true should be treated with the contempt it deserves.

'Dehumanise'…I think not.

And, by the way. I am of the generation and nation which has not had to serve in the military. I do however work with them every day. I count many of them as close friends for whom I have the greatest.

Still waiting for Mr. T's reply.

Hello Sparker

OK. I see the point you are making and the context in which you are making it so let us accept that and move on rather than go off on a tangent here.

Obviously you feel very strongly about this debate but your arguments have not persuaded me to your point of view.

Good luck however.

Mind you, the guy my well be too busy laughing himself silly at the extent and intensity of the debate.

Which may, and I emphasize 'may' be the whole point of the exercise…

Too late, going to bed now.

Ditto Broglie…this has all to do with toy soldiers

Even though I don't think military service has any bearing on this issue, I do think it is *very low* to question someone's service without offering any evidence as to why you doubt him.

I recall Armand said he served in the 7e Regiment. Anyway, here are his own words from September 2011:

I was called with class 1982 because in my country if you studied at University (on those days) you could ask for a "extended" to not go to the Army.
When you finished your career (or simple leaves it because you don't want to study more) you had to wear the uniform as a simple soldier.
I finished my lawer career at 23 so I had to made my obligatory military service that year (lucky me!!).

When you are up to 17 or 18 years old in a unit and if you had a Univesity degree, you went to the first platoon, first Company of your Battalion. So, in my unit, we all had from 21 to 26 years old.
Far from those young recruis of 17 or 18 years old.

You had to trained same as any soldier, but the "relationship" with the NCO are not the same.
You would had much more trouble because those primitive cave men hate people with culture. So training was their great oportunity to treated you worst than trash because in the "real" life it never happened.

Well, when you finished the training, as you had a University degree, two of each Company men (110)had to be choosen officers (Sublieutenant) by vote for your Company officer (another Sublietenant), the Captain of the unit, the Colonel of the Battalion and the chief of your Regiment, and it's normaly to be choosen for your merit in the course of your instrucction.

I was choosen with another doctor (medical doctor), he because was a incredible good profesional and me because before the militia I was a very good "snipper".
(Much experience with arms with my british and german grandfathers since I was 6 years old and five years in the Federal Police with many action there).

It was very funny to see the faces of those primate NCOS when I presented with my new rank in the camp.

So, I went to Malvinas/Falkland with the same military history of my comrades, but with some personal experience in arms.

Of course, I was in trouble there from the first day with the other "professional" officers.
But this is another loooong history.

Thanks for the research Arteis. Seems credible to me.

Few other professions retire their best and brightest early with missing limbs or unhealed minds, not to forget those who don't return at all.

Actually, there may be some professions that do. It really depends on whether there is a war on or not. In my country the most dangerous job, even above the military, is forestry. Coal mining is another.

Even my wife's career of flight attendant has had more deaths in the past 50 years than what you would generally think of as more dangerous jobs.

I guess the difference is that, where needs must, military have to voluntarily put their life on the line. Whereas for all the other dangerous careers, other than the initial choice of going into that known dangerous occupation, anything bad that happens is involuntary.

I see little difference between the people who complain about Tango's numerous posts and the people who complain about the people who complain about the numerous posts.

It all comes down to what annoys you. One side isn't any better than the other.

Who cares? I barely notice who posts what and if it's interesting I'll read it, it's not I won't. Why should how much or little someone posts by me?

Because as has been pointed out about 10,000 times – multiple posts push things off the front page and once a topic is off the front page it ceases to exists for 90% of the TMP population.

Doesn't matter until you post a question or are following an interesting discussion that immediately stops getting replies.

multiple posts push things off the front page and once a topic is off the front page it ceases to exists for 90% of the TMP population.

But I think the rebuttal has also been posted many times – tailor your interests to those boards that reflect your periods of interest so that your main page lasts longer…Trust me, I am a dyed in the wool technophobe and I've managed it – its not hard!

And surely, if you are the kind of individual who's interests are so diverse as to require a feed from every single board, well then surely our friend Tango's diverse research would be of most benefit!

I really suspect that this hullabaloo is not about a technical issue of losing front page space, it is more some kind of jealousy or primitive dislike of someone whose behaviour is slightly different….

And yes, Tango's defenders, in whose ranks I am proud to place myself, are taking up as much space as his detractors…

But I think this is approaching a fight for the heart and soul of TMP, a forum I love…

At the heart of it is this question – should an individual who obeys the rules be asked to modify his legal behaviour because it is purported to inconvenience a vocal minority, when they have the means to ignore his posts.

I think TMP will be the poorer if they succeed in applying group pressure against that individual for doing no more than bringing our attention to what he thinks is of interest to us.

Whether or not he is right 100% of the time is essentially a subjective question so not relevant to the question in hand.

Its a forum which relies on member posts, Tango posts a lot.

Try it again substituting the Tango Gang bullies in the appropriate spots…

Sparker that rebuttal soon follows and is just ridiculous. You may find that you only want to read a few boards but most of us enjoy all of the various aspects of our hobby. And you realize that most of what Tango's post is not about the hobby though right? It's about modern day stuff that he gets from a feed from somewhere else. I have no problem with that but it's just to point out that most (not all) of what he posts is only appropriate for a single board.

Well as it happens I am also a 'Modern' wargamer so perhaps that colours my views on his relevance…

But the point remains that he is still doing no more than the rest of us, only a lot more of it. And if I wasn't blessed with lots of fellow wargamers in my neck of the woods, who's to say I wouldn't compensate by posting about real life military events rather than about my wargames of them?

You do realise that if no-one posted anything, there'd be no TMP, right?

I can't say what you would do. I'd expect like most people you would have the good taste to moderate yourself when people asked you to.

"I can't say what you would do. I'd expect like most people you would have the good taste to moderate yourself when people asked you to."

Really?

Really???? It's come to this? Get a grip.

Stop trying to be a psychiatrist about it.

This is SO simple. I am in neither camp so let me spell this out extremely clearly for you all.

As a pro tango person, you are not bothered by his posting habits. Fine. However, you have 0 right to tell people who are bothered by it to just get over it. They have as much right to enjoy TMP as Tango has right to post. If he infringes on their happiness, they need a tool to solve that issue. A super stifle would fix that issue. Simply telling them to scroll past it is not sufficient. You have no right to tell them what to do, just as they have no right to tell Tango to stop posting so much. SO GIVE THEM A DAMN TOOL TO FIX IT.

IT IS THAT SIMPLE

OK, you make some fair points….

So what about a 'More Message Boards' tool at the bottom of the 'Message Boards' page to allow you to extend your coverage of the posts if you are genuinely incapable or unwilling to follow up on posts by tailoring your board selection? Surely that would fix any genuine gripes without singling anyone out? And no-one is being told how to set up their TMP?

Bill increased it to 400. That will not satisfy however, we are beyond that, sadly.

My good friend Sparker, many thanks for your thread.

The sad thing about these big "battle" between fellow members (or not) is it ending in the usual list of casualties.

8 people on jail.
1 fellow member with this locked account.

That's no good for a forum of wargames, little soldiers and history.

That's really sad.

Amicalement
Armand

I have spent a number of days observing Tango posts without chiming in. However I feel it is time.

As a free internet form, everyone has the right to post as often as they like, Tango included, until the owner Bill decides to limit the number of posts, which he has not.

That some people feel that the 200 or 400 post front page does not give them enough time/space to peruse the posted topics does not give them the right to complain about someone who posts more often. This is a technical problem and/or one of not using the form to it's fullest extent.

If these people take the fraction of a second to click their favorite boards on the Message Boards function, they would find current and past posts they may be interested in. The front page is a convenience!

That they are either too lazy or have not spent enough time to understand the workings of this form is not Tango's fault, it is theirs.

Also that they can sit comfortably behind their keyboard anonymously without revealing their real name or location and complain about someone they don't even know is the worst thing the internet has brought about.

If you sat down and talked with Armand you might find him an intelligent informed gentleman.

Unfortunately I have read a number of comments regarding him that have not come from gentlemen and fellow gamers.

This forum is about gaming, figures, painting and all that is involved in this hobby.

Walk away from your computer and pick up a paint brush or roll some dice!!

I like a *lot* of the message boards here. Why should I have to visit them all individually to find out if there've been new topics, when there's a perfectly good newsfeed that collates all the new topics, apart from the few message boards I've deselected to follow.

Using the message boards is a good solution for some of us. For others of us it is not a good solution. Therefore it is not a universal solution.

Not complaining at all here.No longer care. Others obviously do on either side. And I have seen some of our fellow posters get very insulting and nasty to others with differing views. . I'm not surprised when ever this subject comes up. And thats often. BTW my name is Robert Kennedy and I am in Portland Oregon. Thats why I always add my name to my posts. Oh….wait its already on my profile. . Meh. Robert

Well, we now have a 400 post front page board and seem likely, the way the voting is going, to soon have a 'Super-stifle' function for those that way inclined.

So let peace descend. There really is no need for any further heat on this issue, everyone has the tools they need to set up TMP to suit themselves.

And no-one can say that Bill hasn't addressed the issue, and done so in a way that on the one hand doesn't exclude or marginalise TMP in general; but has leaves the tools for those to isolate themselves as they choose.

A sort of TMP Shaker community, insulated from new posts from those they have decided can never bring anything of value to them, and why not?

Chacun a son Gout!

Well said Sparker. There's more than a hint of cyberbullying around TMP at the moment.

Very true … from both directions, Etranger.

I'd also like to second Sparker's message above. I have a feeling we initially come from opposite sides in this debate, but we seem to have met in the middle with a good compromise.

' why you should maybe cut him a little more slack because of his war service?'

Really? oh come on – and what if you are British eh? what if you are a British vet who had to fight in that war?

Just because someone is a veteran, it doesn't make them any more important than someone else regards posting on here. It might give more credence to a discussion regards the force they served with or a conflict they served in when they give their point/information, aside from that vet or not is irrelevant.

OK, I'm British but didn't fight in the Falklands War. But still, I'm British, and Argentina is still causing trouble for the self-governing Falkland Islanders who consider themselves to be British, so…

So what if Tango was 'the enemy'? He was a soldier fighting for his country. His experiences are no different from the experiences of other soldiers. If you feel that your own veterans deserve a particular level of respect or leeway, then you should offer the same to Tango.

I find many of Tango's postings to be useful, others not so. That's my preference. He spots things that I like reading and that I wouldn't have found for myself. Yes, perhaps he knocks a few off the front – but then, some of his don't stay around as long as I would like anyway.

Perhaps he could be more selective, but then I would miss some items of interest. Realistically, there are only two main areas I would like to see him rein in, and when they crop up I tend to say so:

When the post duplicates another that would have been easily visible to Tango had he looked. Sometimes posts do get duplicated – do it myself – but Tango seems more 'guilty' than most, recently he even posted one with the same heading.

When Tango picks on a manufacturer or source and then – well, 'spams' is the word I think of – posts slightly different aspects of that source over several posts and boards.

Hopefully, 400 posts on the front page and OverStifling should solve all of the Tango 'issues'. Wonder what the next thing to attract all the flak will be?

I wasn't saying any vets deserve anything particular one way or the other Garrison, I was asking Sparker why he thought the fact Tango was a vet had any bearing on anything. hence this bit I wrote 'Just because someone is a veteran, it doesn't make them any more important than someone else regards posting on here.'

Alien,

Hear hear!

I have crossed (verbal) swords with Sparker many times, but in this case he is right. As it is John. I don't like bullies. Not in the real world, not in the virtual one.

I concur. Tell Tango and his Gang to give back TMP. Please.