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"French organisation and flags 1791-2" Topic


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SJDonovan16 May 2014 2:08 a.m. PST

I'm painting up some French infantry wearing the style of uniform in the plate below (taken from Haythornthwaite's 'Uniforms of the French Revolutionary Wars'), which as far as I understand would have been worn in around 1791-2. How was a French battalion organised in the period? Did it have a nine company organisation with eight fusilier companies and one grenadier?

Also, what design of standard would have been carried in this period and what colour would the flagstaff be? And finally does anyone know what the uniform of the drummers would have looked like.

Thanks for any help you can give.

picture

Major Bloodnok16 May 2014 5:18 a.m. PST

I believe it was nine coys. I am at work and don't have acess to my books but, I think the Fusilier Coys. were 120 rank and file +/- and the Grenadier Coys. were around 65 rank & file.

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Camcleod16 May 2014 9:25 a.m. PST

Drummers of the 'whites' were mainly in blue coats of the old livery with plain lace and royal symbols removed:

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Flags of the first Revolutionary period were based on the old Regime style in the Regt. colours plus a new red/white/blue standard for the first bn.

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Brechtel19816 May 2014 5:44 p.m. PST

'There are three sorts of uniforms for every period of history: those described in the uniform regulations; those shown by the artists of that period; and what the soldiers really wore.'-Roger Forthofer

I have found that description of uniforms to be very accurate, including my own service.

When studying the French uniforms of the Revolutionary period it should be understood that this was a great period of upheaval for the French army, and uniforms as well as uniform appearance suffered a great deal.

The regular regiments which were having many problems with morale, desertion, disobedience and anything else you want to add had regulation white uniforms which the new government was trying to get rid of.

The volunteers were in blue and the regular light infantry battalions were in dark green.

The new 'regulations' had the Tarleton-type helmet to be issued to the line infantry as shown in the illustrations here, but there is no evidence that all of them even received it. It was expensive, unpopular, and had a tendency to smell. Those units that did get it went back to the hat. Other units also wore, at least for a time, a similar helmet-the light infantry, a variety of volunteer units, and the horse artillery.

New colors were authorized or mandated in 1791. The cravats were changed from white to tricolor, the flag staffs were probably dark blue, and the regiments were authorized to carry two colors. The first battalions all carried the same type of flag. The second battalions were different in each regiment. The first battalion flages were white with the upper canton next to the staff were three tricolor stripes, blue on top, white in the middle, and red on the bottom. All royal trappings were abolished, and the original fleur de lis were covered with a tricolor triangle. This flag was the national color.

The second battalion flags were composed of nine colors and 12 geometric shapes the design and arrangement of which gave the units an individual identity. The colors were assigned to groups of regiments: 1-12 had black; 13-24 was assigned violet; 25-36 pink; 37-48 sky blue; 49-60 crimson; 61-78 scarlet; 79-92 royal blue; 93-107 dark green; 108-111, light green. The following numbers were vacant: 63, 64, 65, 66, 69, 76, 85, 86, 95, 97, and 100.

All of these flags had the motto, Discipline et obeisance a la loi arranged as follows: Discipline on the left; Discipline on top; A La on the right; and Loi on the bottom. A laurel wreath surrounding the regiment's number was in the center.

For the infantry organizations that were various and somewhat confusing the excellent 1824 book Avantages d'une bonne discipline by JB Avril is most helpful.

After different experiments, testing, and organizations, the line infantry, later demi-brigades, had nine companies per battalion, eight fusilier and one grenadier, with the fusilier companies being larger than the grenadier companies until the 1808 organization.

I hope I have covered all of your questions and have been of some help.

B

von Winterfeldt16 May 2014 11:21 p.m. PST

Camcleod provided already very usefull information, a regiment was made up of two battlions and each battalion of nine companies – one of them a grenadier company.
The uniforms were of the 1791 regulation – which introduced the helmet for the infantry.
A good source for a start would be

Men-at-Arms : French Revolutionary Infantry 1789 – 1802 by Terry Crowdy

SJDonovan16 May 2014 11:39 p.m. PST

Thank you for the replies everyone. That is just what I was looking for. I think I can go ahead and finish painting the unit now.

I don't know much about the armies of the Revolutionary period (the only book I have got is the one by Haythornthwaite I mention above). Are there any other books on uniforms of the era that you would recommend?

Brechtel19817 May 2014 4:27 a.m. PST

There are quite a few excellent uniform references for the period, but it can get very expensive.

I would recommend any prints that you can get hold of by either Eugene Leliepvre or Lucien Rousselot, or both.

John Elting's four-volume Napoleonic Uniforms is excellent and he covers the Royal Army, Emigres, and the French Armies of the Revolution.

Rigo covers, somewhat, the Royal Army and his material is also excellent.

Lilliane and Fred Funcken's excellent Les Soldats de la Revolution Francaise is very helpful and begins in 1789 and goes to the Consulate.

The two-volume Les Uniformes des Guerres Napoleoniennes featuring the work of Bernard Coppens, Patrice Courcelle, Daniel Lorday and Michel Petard is also excellent and like the Volumes by Col Elting (with the watercolors of Hebert Knotel) covers both the French and the armies of the coalitions.

Additionally, I forgot to add comments on the regular line musicians of 1791-1792. They wore the old blue uniforms, but with the Royal insignia removed, and those uniforms were replaced as soon as possible because of ci-devant 'tendencies' and replaced. However, regiment and later demi-brigade commanders soon went back to the practice of different uniforms for drummers, fifers, and musicians, Victor being conspicuous among them.

B

von Winterfeldt17 May 2014 8:55 a.m. PST

The books by Terry Crowdy are quite good for the French infantry (light and line) – The Funcken book Les Soldats de la Revolution is very usefull as well.

For the Austrian army, there is excellent material available on the net – see the recent discussion on TMP – for the Russian Army – Mark Conrad's web site.

SJDonovan17 May 2014 3:02 p.m. PST

Thank you for the advice. I think some of the books may be out of my price range but I will look out for the Funcken books and the Osprey (and maybe start saving up for the others).

Thanks again to everyone for your help.

11th ACR17 May 2014 4:04 p.m. PST

Try:
link
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Camcleod17 May 2014 7:13 p.m. PST

"line musicians of 1791-1792. They wore the old blue uniforms,but with the Royal insignia removed, and those uniforms were replaced as soon as possible"

Would the musicians ever have worn white coats ?

von Winterfeldt17 May 2014 10:44 p.m. PST

Technically one had to make a distinction between musicians (hired civilians dressed up in a military music band) and drummers (which belonged to the army).
In both cases I wouldn't opt for white uniforms from 1792 – 95.

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