"What do you think of this shooting idea?" Topic

Each firer has a number of attack points. Add up all attack points, compare to defense value on a table. attacker has modifiers that shift columns left and right (moved, enfilade shot, etc). Defender has modifiers that move up and down rows (hard cover, disrupted etc).

Result is a number which is number of D10 you roll. each roll over the defender's armor value is a hit.

Not sure if there would be a saving throw, probably not. In part this helps keep dice off the table as you're never rolling more than 5 and usually only 2 or 3…

I'm sure it's probably been done somewhere…

GW did a similar thing with Battlefleet Gothic weapons battery fire. They limited the shifts to those they could put on the table, which I think was a good choice. It made the mechanic crystal clear.

(It also worked decently within the confines of BFG.)

Sounds complicated.
(Attack, defense, modifiers) --> table --> number of dice --> result

How about putting the roll in with the modifiers instead?
(Attack, defense, modifiers, dice) --> table --> result

@Meiczyslaw:
Wasn't that mechanic also used in (the much hated at the time, but in hindsight brilliant) Epic 40k?

Tables can make things easy or hard, it depends how you like information presented. Personally I hate lists of modifiers, so some sort of CRT seems a sensible idea.

Complicated and requires referring to a table. This is 2014 not 1984 ;-)

I quite like it Mark.
Remember a 6+ 1D6 "to hit" of 2014 rule sets is not always the best option.

Mark, are you saying that the defender has a defense value and an armor value? What's the difference between the two, i.e. what are they meant to represent?

Epic 40K used the same system. The number of dice to be rolled was adjusted in columns depending on what the target was: infantry, vehicles, super heavies, and what the target was doing: stationary, moving, marching.
It is simple and fast, even though I generally avoid charts if possible.

I prefer a system, that divides the functions clearly.

The number of dice only depends on the shooter. He calculates the number by adding his Firepower, weapons etc.

The number to roll only depends on the target. At the same time the defender can calculate, what number is needed.

Using both a defense value as a table look up and an armor value as a target number seems redundant, or at least overly complicated. I would use only the former, and have the table result simply be the number of dice rolled, with a fixed target number to roll. I've been entranced lately with dice pool systems using (effectively) nD2, though, which colors my perception.

Doug

How about using a D20, the defenders armor is rated 1-10 weapons are rated 12-20. The attacker rolls a D20 for each shot. If the defenders armor is say a 6 and the attackers weapon is a 14 every D20 that is a 7-13 is a hit.

Why do it this way?

• I like one aspect of the buckets of dice system: counting successes is easy. But I hate having all those dice all over the table. I've seen games with side tables, dice trays, dice towers, you name it and…there are always dice all over the place. So I want to keep the number of dice rolled very small, no more than 5.
  
• I could make all the shifts columns or rows, the math works fine either way, but it does build in a way to "tweak" things.
  
• The armor save may be redundant as pointed out, still thinking about that. But saving throws seem to be expected in thee buckets-o-dice systems.
  
• A good chart is easy to use, seamless, and can usually be a great aid to speedy accurate play. I've seen charts from 1984 and many seem to have been designed by sadistic accountants seeking world domination by driving gamers insane and/or blind.
  
• Modifiers would be few and easy to remember. Flank shot, hard cover, soft cover, etc. Maybe 4 or 5 for the attacker likewise the defender.
  
• The look up dice allows for speedy play because there are NO MODIFIERS to the dice rolls. So here's an example: My squad has a firepower of 6 your defense is 4. One column right because I moved, down one row for soft cover: result is 3 dice. Rolling the dice you get a hit on 6+ No looking up "what's my target number?" No looking up "do I get one for cover? how about one for recon units in woods?"
  

Thanks everybody I'll go look at Epic and Gothic.

By the way here is a picture of the chart. But perhaps it could be done away with. Since rows and columns just modify the combat values, just do dice=1/2 difference in combat values rounded down.

Looks like a great idea to me. Simple table, minimum modifiers, easy to figure results. I also like the flexibility of being able to use any type of dice and not have to add modifiers to the roll. I always wondered why rules writers got away from charts in the first place…oh yea Empire III So this is why you wanted the spread sheet earlier eh Mark?

While some people don't like tables, nobody likes doing math in public. Especially division. Finding the spot on the table, then moving your finger URDL a couple times is pretty simple.

Also, your table doesn't reduce to a linear function, so the math would be a bit more unpleasant than basic PMTD math.

I like it.

I've grown to dislike buckets of D6 to hit and buckets of D6 to save. Your idea has a simple elegance that I like and perhaps contrary to many I'd rather use a table like this and a few dice over endless buckets of D6.

I played a game the other day where I was rolling out bucket after bucket of D6 and all the hits were being saved by the second bucket of D6 – all that player effort for absolutely zero effect in the game made me think that there are better ways to resolve such things.

One thing about dice that makes games fun are the improbable results – like the turn 1 kill shot in an old west game: nailed a bad guy in the forehead from 200 yards through a derrick ad across a fence. Yes, it was a silly game but that series of improbable die rolls just MADE the game.

When you roll 28 D6 that kind of moment is approaching never.

But with 3 or 4 dice, you can roll four hits at a critical time and that roll sways the battle….

Frankly, sounds like a mechanic from the eighties.

Tables are not good – they slow down play. Cross-referencing stats from troops into tables to find out a target number (and then still rolling a number of D10) sounds too cumbersome to me.

Good game design provides stats for troops which directly translate into target numbers for dice without the need of an intermediate step such as a table. Preferably the stats can be used directly, without the need for an additional mathematical formula.

The only way I would use a table is in a setup as described by the OP, but then the table gives a number such as "435%" which then means 4 kills and 35% chance for a fifth. IIRC Fantasy Warlord used something like this.

As for the system proposed by the OP: why not derive the number of dice thrown from the stats of the attacker+defender with some modifiers with a mathematical formula? Sounds easier to do than a table lookup.

BTW, if you dislike rolling large number of dice, just group D6's in groups that guarantee 1 kill.

E.g. target number 5, 10 dice to roll. Each die has 1/3 chance of scoring a success, so expected value for 3 dice is 1 kill.
10 dice ==> 3 kills + 1 die left to roll.

Doesn't make much of a difference for large numbers of dice, but you miss some of the thrill of scoring exceptional results.

As a rule of thumb, in my house rules, a specific mechanic should only modify a single parameter in the mechanic.

E.g. suppose your mechanic uses rolling some dice against a target number.
Either:
- modify target number;
- modify number of dice;
- modify type of dice;
But no combinations, since that is too confusing.

•The look up dice allows for speedy play because there are NO MODIFIERS to the dice rolls. So here's an example: My squad has a firepower of 6 your defense is 4. One column right because I moved, down one row for soft cover: result is 3 dice. Rolling the dice you get a hit on 6+ No looking up "what's my target number?" No looking up "do I get one for cover? how about one for recon units in woods?"

It may not be a modifier to a die roll or a target number, but it's effectively the same thing, as the players still have to either remember which actions cause a right or left or an up or down shift, or look them up. If you want to model the same number of in-game effects, you'll still have the same number of things to remember or look up.

Doug

True but with a little chart the 8 or 9 modifiers are right there, and actually are easily memorized by turns 3….plus each player only looks at their modifiers so it's only half the list…just another way of skinning a cat but besides winding up with dice all over the damn place, rolling buckets is sssssslllooowwww, at least around here.