"Wargaming, Elitism, Snobbery, and the Future?" Topic

Rats, I failed. Another one in life.

BJ, I've listened to the party for a good part of the day, and watched people whom I usually rather like and respect acting like they've had a few too many tequilas, doing bizarre dances in their underwear on the snowy lawn.
Call me a concerned neighbor.

Allen

"Static tyrant is undoubtedly either ".

Yes he must be a Troll IMHO. His second post had all the seeds of discord planted in it.

Not to forget prejudiced: "mindless american teenager" is quite unpleasant to read.

And... I've been biting through my tongue all day, too, because usually I'm in the "read a book" camp, but was sufficiently put off my the response on the original thread that I thought piling on was just tacky. Even when various individuals have been tossing piles of feces at the OFM - who is one of the most helpful people you will find on this or any other forum - I just couldn't summon the will to comment.

Lately, anway, my personal frustration with answering questions online hasn't been with the new, naive, uninformed, vaguely curious, or "looking for a quick answer" poster. It's with the dynamic of providing an informed, reasoned, considered response, and then having that negated by another poster who comes along and says, "How do you know? Were you there? There's not enough evidence. Do whatever you want to."

Those are the gadflys that sap any joy out of trying to help.

Allen

It got a bit hot and stuffy in here, didn't it?

I think we should all have a drink. It's still Christmas, after all.

I can't believe how upset people are getting here.

I'm mainly a fantasy gamer, but I play some ancients, and I've got a bunch of Romans that I painted up for fun.

FUN!!!!!!!

These GAMES are supposed to be FUN, and a HOBBY. I don't understand soccer players who get so involved in their teams that they get in brawls, and I don't understand how folks can get so upset about historic periods.

Are my Romans painted to a historically accurate standard? I don't know - I was born in 1975, and I haven't ever seen any actual Romans - they all died a long time before photography was invented. Did I do my best? YES. I went to the library, checked out a couple of books on Rome, and used the art in the books as a guideline. I did the same with my ancient Egyptians.

Are my fantasy figs painted however the hell I feel like painting them? YES. They're my miniatures, and I paint them whatever color I want.

I play and paint for fun - if you're a fun person to play with or against, then I'll play with you, regardless of the accuracy of your research. If you're not any fun, then I won't play with you (more than once, at least...).

Do I think that a little research is important? Yes - if you were playing historic WW2 Germans and tried to arm them with rail guns and Sassanid Persian allies, then I'd call you on your BS. If we're playing Gear Krieg, I might let it go (as long as our points are equal).

FUN, people, how come no-one mentions FUN???

This thread is becoming really frustrating to read, but much like a train wreck I can't stop looking...

[If that is an exaggeration, and you can afford a small sum-then BUY THE BOOKS AND READ THEM! Use card board mock-ups, thimbles for infantry, match-boxes for tanks. The money should first go to the SUBSTANCE of your supposed hobby, not the representations!]

That is a moronic statement. What exactly is the hobby, is it reading books so you can be a blowhard or is it playing with toy soldiers?? I do believe there is a troll here, but it is not the originator of the post.

Talk about kicking someone over and over, sheesh... and I thought BME was an arrogant cuss..

[Are my fantasy figs painted however the hell I feel like painting them? YES. They're my miniatures, and I paint them whatever color I want.]

That is wrong wrong wrong, real fantasy goblins must be painted orange as Gary Gygax intended!!!

Heretic. Why don't you go play modern sci-fi where you uninformed uncaring types all like to do crazee stuff like that.

Heretic

Ah, disregard. I'm all hosed up. Static Tyrant really was looking for WWI info.

Allen

Stop me if you've heard this one:

A Fantasy Gamer, a gaming Historian, and a Nun walk into a pub..

I constantly find that I am glad to mainly solo-wargame and avoid the rivet-counters and anoraks out there.

While I make my best efforts to accurately paint my figures and models, I would be exceedingly put out to have someone ban a unit of my army for the wrong shade of the facing colour, or wearing 1940 Jackboots instead of the more widespread ankle boots of 1944 for a Normandy game.

As regards panzer-grey versus yellow, for the non-cognoscenti, many German AFV's from 1944 again were finished in dark grey, and the range of grey colours supplied to crews to camouflage their tanks was so comprehensive that any half-decent reference will tell you that just about anything goes as far as paint schemes on late war German armour. Most photographic resources from the period are monochrome anyway, so good luck to the Benjamin Moore paint chip cowd.

As for as the horse and musket period, the logistics for an army on campaign were so chaotic and the dyes used were of such unstable composition, that again variation was the rule, NOT the exception. British redcoats quickly became pink or brownish for instance - are we to assume that the facings were not prone to the same vagaries?

The regulations may state that the Sussex regiment wore orange facings (for example), but did they mean peach or tangerine? Or did exposure to rain fade it to (God Forbid!) apricot or kumquat? For myself, if an opponent said "these are the Sussex" and their facings were kind of orangey, that would be fine with me. If they wore camo or carried AK-47's that wouldn't be......

Many years ago, I attended a model-show put on by my local hobby-store. It was a very small event, mainly kids with day-glo painted Tamiya Dinosaurs and the like. The winner of the WW2 section, was a youth with a beautifully modelled PzIV and a section of German infantry moving into a Russian village in summer 1941. The kid was a talented modeller and obviously read all of Shep Paine's books as the result was very realistic.

Deservedly, he won first prize ($5 store voucher - I told you it was a long time ago). When it was all over, I congratulated him on a fine model, and pointed out very quietly that the roadsigns he'd used were for North Africa, showing distances to places like Bardia and Sollum - an easily corrected gaffe, but hugely wrong in terms of his diorama.

Should I have denounced him to the judges, who missed his mistake, or did I do better to point it out to him politely and quietly, while steering him towards some readable references available at the local library in those pre-internet days? (By the way, he was embarassed at his error, but very grateful that it was pointed out in a helpful and non-condescending, non-hostile way).

I believe I did the right thing, but I also think that many TMP'ers would have jumped on him like vultures.

No wonder the public at large think that people in this hobby are real-life versions of The Simpsons' Comic Book Guy.

If someone asks for a quick-start reference, for God's sake give it to them. There is so much on the internet anyway, and it mostly public domain. If you don't want to help, that's fine too, just don't go whingeing on about the fact that they shouldn't ask for help. Have any of you NOT asked for help on something related to this hobby at some point? If you haven't, then you're a better man than me Gunga Din, but if so why are you even visiting this site?

Piquetone:

I am well enough off, I suppose, and have no family to feed, so that I am not literally left without a dollar whenever I buy a ten dollar kit, see a movie, etc. However, in all things I attempt to be thoughtful and forward-looking. I believe it would be foolish to spend every dollar I earn on my hobby - "toys today, broke tomorrow" doesn't sound like any fun at all.

Thus, I have a hobby budget, and would really like not to exceed it. My point was that it does not stretch to both models (and paints, glue, terrain etc) as well as books. my hobby is wargaming with model figures - not reading books.

Suggesting that spending money on books is more important than on miniatures merely indicates to me that your "hobby" is not the one I'm talking about. I didn't ask this question in a library...and are we having this discussion on 'The Books Page'? No, no we aren't.

Besides, I would only be interested in reference books if they actually gave me information I could directly apply to my models. For instance, what colours are suitable for painting X figure? Your typical "artist's representation" colour plate showing uniform colours is invariably a scan of some sort of watercolour or oil painting. When painting a model's trousers I might use 1-3 different colours depending on if I want a flat colour 'block' or some basic shading, highlighting etc. The artist painting a figure from history will use hundreds of different tones for the different creases and folds in the cloth. Couple this with some imagined light source the painter has used, the effect of the paper the illustration is printed on, and the fact that people paint miniatures differently depending on the scale (more washed-out/grey colours for smaller scale figures) - it should be apparent that there is simply no comparison.

Maybe it is just me, but I am unable to determine a good colour match from a painted illustration of a historical soldier.

Even in the simpler case of painting equipment or armour, you can test my theory by going to a model shop and picking up three or four different tank kits, made by the same or different manufacturers, it doesn't matter. Most have a painting on the front of the box, rather than a photo of the completed kit. If you pick some different items which show the same camouflage pattern and colour schemes on the box art, you can observe many differences. Which one is 'correct'? Is that any good way to pick an appropriate colour?

However, show me a photograph of a painted miniature, and so long as it is under appropriate lighting, I will be able to tell what colours I own or can buy which will match those used on the figure.

aecurtis:

Yes, I am looking for WW1 info. I have no idea where you got the other idea from.

helmet101:

I have read every post of this thread, and in a timely manner too - I am yet to post a comment without first seeing what I am replying to. That's just basic courtesy to the other posters here, and to Bill.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say "try again". I'm not "trying" anything - merely raising a point for discussion, and then coming back to read what people have had to say about it. Thus I don't think I can 'fail' or 'need to have another go'. So...what did you mean?

I used the objectionable phrase "mindless American teenager" because other posters had already suggested that at least two of those words applied to me. They were wrong, and now everyone can see how inappropriate their suggestions were. Perhaps we can leave it at that.

You seem to be getting a little agitated by this thread. If you would prefer, I am happy to continue this discussion at your leisure when you have had some time to think things over.

OOOooooo - wargaming, snobbery, and elitism- my three favorite subjects.

When I first started out wargaming, many years ago, I read books in the school library and the local public libraries. As I aged I bought books at garage sales, flea markets, library book sales, inherited some books, and always made sure books were prominent on my wish lists. I buy books from many sources, even at St Vinny. I do this because the history research is 40% of the hobby for me, the fact I get to play with toy soldiers is 40%, and my ability to speak with eloquence about an historical event is the other 20%. If I am not as well educated as others regarding a particular period/army/battle being discussed I have the good common sense and polite grace to sit quietly, give them the floor, and ask relevant questions. Once many Moons ago a person on another forum asked for some help about British regimental facings during the Peninsula Campaign - I sent him the info from at three different sources (facings, lace, and buttons). Did I help him through a rough spot or enable his dependence?

I can understand the positon of those saying, they don't want to become the research librarian or research assistant for anyone. Especially someone who readily admits a disdain for doing it themselves. I have no qualms about helping people who are stuck, have hit a brick wall, or need info from an OOP source that I have in my library. I do have qualms about enabling dependence in people who just want to access my many years of research because they lack the time, the initiative, or the desire to do it themselves.

I'm also a fair cook, and, periodically, I have dropped off goodies at the local hobby store for the gamers (board, scifi, fantasy, historical). I'd get real mad, real fast if the gamers there started demanding I bring them goodies more regularly because they don't have the time to learn to cook or money to order take-out.

In my genealogical research I've been as helpful as possible with others and I provide as much info as I can to someone who is stuck. However, there are people who pop in on the genealogical forums and ask census questions which can be answered by a quick visit to the local National Archive or LDS Church.

In some respects this whole discussion boils down to the following: I can ask people what time it is, or I can roll up my sleeve and look at my watch. Basically my choice involves who is to be inconvenienced - me or the other guy.

Personally, I like to help people find the beginning of their particular Yellow-Brick road, but I don't want to hike all the way to Oz with each one of them.

DJCoaltrain, I must say I only read your post but it reminds me of the Doctor who wouldn't use his acquired knowledge because it was he who had to study in medical school or the lawyer who wouldn't defend the innocent man because he believed the man should have gone on to law school himself and done the work.

For all those guys that have so much info and don't want to share it, keep it! Find a good use for it because if you can't I am sure there are plenty on this board that can tell you what to do with it.

"Yes, I am looking for WW1 info. I have no idea where you got the other idea from."

Just from flashing on the phrase about keeping WWII Germans with machine pistols - but as I said, I wasn't reading carefully. Apologies.

Allen

Static, I think you are being too sensitive about this.

BTW...the research is as much of the fun for me as the gaming is.

"You seem to be getting a little agitated by this thread. If you would prefer, I am happy to continue this discussion at your leisure when you have had some time to think things over".

Tyrant, I mostly think that your post contains in their own pernicious ways the seeds of discord rather than kindship.

"Try again" means try to be respectful, kind and mindful, ask question without including the useless "you.. rest on your laurel" (what laurel? who's 'you')."your wives? blabla"

I think that wasn't contributing in showing a lot of good faith in trying to establish honest and open dialogues.

Try again

"Honest and open" in what sense, helmet? The initial discussion, you might recall, went a little like this:

- - -

Me: I'm looking for some specific information. Does anyone have it, or could you point me in the right direction? I would prefer it to be in a specific format if at all possible.

Ungracious Reply: You are a prat for even asking that.

Me: ...

- - -

While "honesty and openness" certainly includes allowing the other guy to have his say, in this case to complain that I should not be asking the question in the first place... it's the unconstructiveness of it all that got to me, and made me start this thread in the first place.

I think there is a certain "attitude problem" that deserved pointing out in this thread, if only to make several people think a bit more about how they come across. If you feel that the same thing also applies to me, I will take that on board.

And it is all meant in a kindly way - that is the whole point of the exercise. Otherwise I would have just accepted the original comment as unhelpful but fairly unremarkable, and moved on. However - I think we as a hobby can do better. And perhaps a (periodic) reminder of this does everyone a kindness.

One might feel the need to "get even" but it rarely does better than adding oil on fire. I'm sure most people can get along, just try to find the proper chanel of communication and keep it clean.

you did it Tyrant. I much prefer your latter type of tone.

Static...What was Bill's response to you when you filed your complaint? Since you feel insulted by the thread, I'm sure that you filed a complaint.

Static Tyrant "And it is all meant in a kindly way - that is the whole point of the exercise. Otherwise I would have just accepted the original comment as unhelpful but fairly unremarkable, and moved on. However - I think we as a hobby can do better. And perhaps a (periodic) reminder of this does everyone a kindness."

The whole point of the exercise? Is this an excercise in trolling?

Blimey! I was going to start getting into Historicals but this has put me right off! Just some views on this -which I may well be shot down for. My reasons why I would also ask about any website references or particularly useful books.

1/ I have a day job and a home life - I do not have an abundance of time to completely research a period - does this mean I am not allowed to play said period?

2/ Books - I love books. However, I am not blessed with an abundance (I like this word ok) of space at home to store all these wonderful reference books - and my local libraries are not blessed with that many books that will give me details on uniforms, tactics and so forth. I can find books that tell me who fought where and what happened but not what they looked like etc. What do I do - go back to sci-fi and fantasy?

3/ Money - ok, I can play in 20mm and use lots of 1:72nd plastics as my father does for Napoleonics so it's a viable period to game (as is anything that I can do cheaply). This would leave some money for books - if I had the space to store them.

I can see both sides of this argument but if someone simply asks to be pointed in a general direstion as a STARTING POINT why not help them. Perhaps by asking for any websites that help, this person wants to start researching this period, and finds it easier to utilise the web first than trying to hunt down useful books? I don't think at any stage there was a request to have everything done for them and handed to them on a plate?

I want to start WW2 gaming. My first source of help would be my father to ask him about uniforms and what equipment troops had at that time, what vehicles were used etc. I'm hoping he won't turn round and say -'We'll, sorry son but until you go away and spend some time researching all about WW2 I am not going to give you any advice as to where to start'.

For Napoleonics my father has perhaps half a dozen books at the most for uniforms etc and seems to do fine, and a lot of these books were bought before I was born. At no stage as he said if I want to play Naps with him I have to go off and search for my own books and do research. He's just happy I'll have a game of them with him and try to learn to tell the difference between a set of Prussian Light Infantry and some French Line Infantry.

For those who know about this period I've just talked complete nonsense no doubt but I hope I got the point across. If I could help anyone regards gaming, even if to offer a starting point for their research I'd do it without thinking 'hang on a minute, the lazy sods, I've been gaming and researching this genre for over 20 years now and he he/she is wanting to be told some information just like that. I must tell them to go away and research for as long as I have before they can play me - even if I may well be dead by then.

This is an amazing thread when all someone did was ask for a bit of help. remind me to NEVER ask someone on TMP for any help on Historicals, and go spend my money on something else.

alien - still tempted to start historicals, just not prepared to mention it on TMP or ask for help :-(

and we wonder why that bloody elf insulted historicals and their players at any given chance ;-)

delljohnb:

Of course I did not file a complaint. Otherwise I might have referred (via a link, or mentioning the title or posters' names, for instance) to the original thread. I do not have a "problem" per se with the original commenter. But I wanted to raise awareness of the issue. See my earlier post on this matter - you did read every post before jumping in boots-first, didn't you?

As far as trolling goes...well, including yourself there are a couple of people who have accused me of that so far, and as you say if there's a verbal complaint then surely the Editor has been notified. So I guess he doesn't think I am, otherwise I'd be in the dawghouse. I mean, is asking someone "how about that weather" trolling...no, I don't think so. This has stirred up some good, clean debate, and that's what I was hoping for. I wanted to get people thinking about both sides of the issue. "Trolling" is usually synonymous with "flamebait", and I don't think I'm guilty of that.

aliensurfer:

Thanks for your comments, and please don't let me mentioning this one angry old poster put you off wargaming any period! I'm sure I speak for many of us when I say that I would be pleased as punch to roll out some 1:72 plastic figures to fight against your future armies - even if that did mean that we were pitting plastic-blue-coloured Greeks Hoplites against the curiously painted Islamic Chapter of the Knights Templar, in a battle apparently set sometime during the four-and-a-halfth crusade. Game on!

Yours is exactly the sort of situation I wanted to get people thinking about - someone without a lot of "hobby experience" who is simply curious about a new period. You can't know the details of someone's situation without talking to them, so it is premature at best to call them lazy and send them on their way.

Frankly, the more people who can be encouraged in their enjoyment of this fine hobby, *in whatever way they best enjoy it*, the better.

Thanks Static - if I ever manage to emmigrate to Oz (that's where you are yeh?) I'd happily play you :-) PS - he who used to be Nimrod SS is in Oz and a very nice chappy too and he may be able to help. Also, he makes some great resin scenery - Fernvale Scenics - check them out.

alien

Seems like there are a few Australian wargamers on this board. It must be something like the way we have a disproportionate number of Olympic gold medal winners, only it's not quite as illustrious to do what we do...I certainly never got a ticker-tape parade thrown in my name!

"I can understand the positon of those saying, they don't want to become the research librarian or research assistant for anyone. Especially someone who readily admits a disdain for doing it themselves. I have no qualms about helping people who are stuck, have hit a brick wall, or need info from an OOP source that I have in my library. I do have qualms about enabling dependence in people who just want to access my many years of research because they lack the time, the initiative, or the desire to do it themselves."

Or, to say it another way, I don't paint very well, I don't have a space to paint in, and I don't like painting. But I love to play. Will you paint my figures for me? For free?

Research, painting, modeling, building terrain, and playing are all components of the wargaming hobby. We all prefer some of those over others. But to demand the fruits of another's labor in one of those areas because we don't want to do it ourselves just doesn't work - as Doctor Phil would say, "That dog don't hunt."

One aspect of the hobby that I enjoy is creating Armybuilder files. That's a lot of work. I give the files away to my gaming buddies, but they return the favor by designing scenarios, building terrain, or painting figures. It isn't a quid pro quo but rather a cooperative effort amongst all of us.

On the internet, we don't get to see that cooperative effort. All we get to see is the question that wants to capitalize on someone else's work. I don't blame anyone (pancerni, JtOFM, et al) for pointing out the unfairness of the request and the unfairness of the ensuing diatribes.

All that being said, I'm also in favor of pointing someone to useful sources for accomplishing his goal. There's a huge difference in doing the work for someone (which is what some folks seem to expect) and pointing them in the right direction of doing their own work. YMMV.

This is ridiculous! I havent seen so much arrogance and general for a long time. This cracks me up. As I read these posts I am imagining them speaking in the Simpsons comic book guy voice.

Static Tyrant I am sorry I dont know anything of any worth about WWI or I would help you out. I do my research for my armies. I am no great historian but if you ever decide to do Polybian Romans or WWII Operation Market Garden and ask a question, I will try to answer what I can or direct you to an online source. If I have a book I will look it up for you if you only have a question or two... there is no sense in you having to buy the whole book.

Once you get further into the period you playing, you will find that the books will start to accumulate on your shelf anyway, I think. I wouldnt worry about the books right away, just try to find a reasonable person who will give you the information to help you get started.

@jizbrand:

Sure, everyone contributes in their own way. My point is that some people contribute *in the future*. Jimmy Newbie may not have ever done anything to help you out, but if you just encourage him to enter the hobby, perhaps his spending dollars will help keep in business a manufacturer you like but can't afford to order from "just yet". Or maybe he will end up penning scenario books for a rules set you like. Or maybe he will start his own company one day and fill a niche which you've been dying to get into...

So someone shouldn't have to prove that they have contributed before receiving something in return. It would probably be pretty easy for a high-post-count, article-submitting, name-brand type like, say, Scurvy Bartella / Low Key Lyesmith to ask for something and receive it. But poster noob161 might not receive the same courtesy.

And no offence to everyone's favourite Aussie, but which of them represents the long-term future of the hobby?

[Scurvy, if I have offended, I will personally come visit you and buy you a beer.]

Static Tyrant: I posted two links bottom of first page. One links to article on Renegade Miniatures site. These were, I believe, previously printed in Wargames Illustrated Magazine. The articles describe the different armies and give some organizational information. The second link is to the Foundry painting guide for their Great War line.

@ alfritz:

Yes, many thanks - I have bookmarked both pages. I had seen the Renegade page but not the Foundry one. Both are good resources and exactly what I was after. Sorry I didn't thank you personally at the time - was a bit snowed under with all the "troll this" and "lazy that" to deal with!

It's interesting to note that many moons after the actual information has been pointed out in a friendly fashion, the debate about whether we should or should not help out fellow gamer is still continuing!

People are funny sometimes.

"Frankly, the more people who can be encouraged in their enjoyment of this fine hobby, *in whatever way they best enjoy it*, the better."

So what if a guy liked American Football, and wanted to play a game now and then? But the new people in his area, said, "Yah, we'll play, but we want the field 10 yards wider, and one man can be moving towards the line of scrimmage at the snap, and you can score by just punting into the other guys end-zone."

The guy really wants to play-so he goes along with it.

A year later a dozen guys come into the neighborhood and say, "We'll play, but only if you can only move the ball by using your body and feet-no hands, and no substitutions, or time outs-continuous play" The guy says, "Wait a minute-that's not football!"

"It is where we come from" Say the new guys. More than half of the guys go along with the new guys and that's now the majority view of the game of Football. When the guy who wanted to play American Football complains, the crowd berates him for being a snob, and tells him to become more "tolerant."

The guy can only reply," But that's not the game that I wanted to play! You can't call Soccer-Football!"

At that point the guy assembled a few friends to play Football, and the Soccer gamers went on to separate schedules.

Historical gamers and Fantasy gamers are in two seperate leagues and playing different schedules. Any attempt to make them part of the same hobby is missing the point. They are not playing the same game. Just as certain aspects of American Football, Canadian Fooball, and Football(Soccer) overlap-so does fantasy and Historical-but they are not the same game. At the center of the difference is HISTORY vrs. fantasy; Books vrs.comic books; Historically accurate figures vrs. Imaginatively painted fictional creatures; Game rules based on history vrs. rules based on whatever.

The fad in recent years has been to try to fuzz the differences-but, in the end, the cross-over potential is marginal from fantasy to Historical-and only slightly greater from historical to fantasy. About on a par with the numbers of Soccer kickers in the NFL.

I'd hate to see David Beckham try an off-tackle run against the Pittsburgh defense-only wearing his soccer gear. It would be ugly.

BJ

"It is interesting that "snob" in the US has become defined as anyone that has studied, researched, and reflected upon a subject."

This is not what a "snob" is in the US. A "snob" is someone who does the above and then says this:

"...bored by history-then play FANTASY. It is specifically designed for large groups of pre-adolescent, comic book readers, who enjoy duplicating lists of troops from rigidly structured rules. Have fun!"

To "file a complaint" you click on the "!" mark next to the post. Perhaps you were unaware of this capability. On another point, if you think that voicing an opinion on a board is "filing a verbal complaint", then you might be suprised to find out that the board moderator does not read every post and evaluate it.

And yes....I read every post before I replied. I ALWAYS do that. Period. That is how I do things.

Since you are new around here, here is a link to the FAQ. While it doesn't cover everything, it should give you an idea of what to expect around here.

TMP link

Like I mentioned earlier, I think that you will find the majority of the posters here are honestly trying to be helpful, however, if you make a post, be prepaired to not have thin skin. The nature of the internet dictates this...not the nature of the hobby.

Respectfully,
John "delljohnb" Baugher

The value of the information people in this hobby possess is deminimus to all other aspects of human existance.

Personally, when someone asks me for help or info about the arcane minutiae of my eccentric past-time, I am only too pleased to help out (if I can). Those of you who say "go do it yourself, I did!" really are .

The original request for information was in no way offensive and in no way should have elicited this type of furious response from the .

From the FAQ:

"Can I start a flame war?
Depends on your purpose. A flame war is defined as an "acrimonious debate," and we have plenty of debates here. Starting a topic on a controversial issue is fine, as long as the topic is in good taste and in the appropriate forum. However, deliberately trying to "stir up" acrimony by provocative or offensive posts is not encouraged."

If that last post doesn't qualify, I don't know what would.

Allen

[The fad in recent years has been to try to fuzz the differences - but, in the end, the cross-over potential is marginal from fantasy to Historical - and only slightly greater from historical to fantasy.]

Then why are DBA and HOTT so similar?

And Vis Bellica and Vis Magica, from the same designer?

Not to mention Warhammer Fantasy Battles and Warhammer Ancients, Warhammer ECW, Warhammer Old West...

And Flames of War has a touch of sci-fi ancestry.

Crikey Moses!

Look I havent read the entire tract of spite here so bear with me if I have it all wrong. (some of us have been boat fishing and wineing and dineing the past few days.)

Static asks about what a trench raiding party/small unit TOE would of looked like so he can have a bit of fun with WW1. (I wanted to find out as well and thought it was a fine post to post up. Main reason being I would of learned something.)

Then someone suggested he had to do his own research in bitchy tones.

Then this started.

Then like a pack of drunken skins everyone else put the boot in.

um.........why?

I thought this was a place where we shared info about our little hobby and anything else that takes our fancy with the handful of people out there that knows little lead men make the universe spin round properly.

I mean sheesh if I dont know something about something TMP is my first stop with a question.

For example

Who makes left handed figs

What is this bone sitting on my painting desk

Why doesnt the Aussie SAS do a commando raid to recapture the ashes

What is origins

and shortly I will be asking "Have you ever eaten jellied eels?"

The reason I ask is because between the lot of you someone can and has always answered the question no matter how outfield it is.

What can I say apart from you folk are some smart cookies.

So why all the angst over a very reasonable question that was even gameing related to boot?

I guess the only advice i can offer Static is the following

Change you user name to something like 'Betty big breasts' and all the guys will answer your questions imediatly, not only that they will go out of their way to make it as easy as possible for you to get into whatever gameing period they play. Say you can paint and they will offer to marry you to boot.

cus sure as pudding if you were a good looking lass and asked that question about ww1 none of this would of happened. (My last missus had a rack you could hang yer hat on and she never had an issue getting info. In fact one guy even spent ages making sure the WM starter set she got for me was just right and went as far as suggesting several years worth of gifts in a sensible order to build the army up. My only issue was the cheeky coves eyeballs must of been doing a good impersonation of a drowning man trying to desperatly stay afloat and not sink down into the depths of her cleve.)

"Why doesnt the Aussie SAS do a commando raid to recapture the ashes"

Ok, please tell me what ashes. You have piqued my curiosity. (Oh, and sorry for the thread hijacking...)

@ delljohnb:

Yes, I am aware of the complaints system here. Far from being "new", I have been coming back to this page for many months now, so I know my way around.

You suggested that, because I had written what you took to be a complaint about a post, clearly I must also have notified the Editor. When I turned this suggestion around and handed it back to you, you found it ridiculous and sought ways to discredit it. I think that reflects on you more than anything else.

@ Hacksaw:

He means the Ashes trophy which England and Australia compete for in the game of cricket each year. The actual ashes referred to are the charred remains of a set of 'stumps', I believe.

As you can see there are certain factions within either country which would quite like to get their hands on this coveted, if unusual, prize!

In my experience, the usual historical gaming group consists of one or two people who actually know something about the period, one or two people who might have read a book about the period years ago, and one or two people who don't know anything about the period but are eager to paint their minis up and push some lead around.

Yes, I'm the one who goes out and buys a few books on the subject before getting into any new army or period. But I've never minded helping out the other guys, because I like having opponents.

Someone said that you have to know the period in order to play properly. I think it's the opposite - the rules should naturally teach correct behavior. And I mean by the way they work, not by lecturing the player. So if I try to use WWII tactics on a Renaissance battlefield, I should fail to be successful.

Ignorance is bliss.

Piquetone- "John OFM, don't brag as we all know that Canadians are always in short red coats, blue riding jodhpurs, topped with brown Smokey Bear hats, and carry a log cabin shaped Maple-syrup can instead of of a water bottle."

Really? Why wasn't I issued a kit? Darn government cutbacks...

Some more on the Ashes.

When the Aussies smacked british cricket for a 6 causing the first loss of the Poms on home soil a death notice for british cricket was run in the papers ending with the line the body will be cremated. When the Poms beat us the next year, like good sports we gave the corpse back to them in a little urn containing one of the bails we nicked as a souvineer from that momentous game.

Ever since the swine have hung onto it keeping it under lock and key away from the light fingered colonials at Lords cricket ground.

Every time we have whuped em and demand our trophy back since, they come up with some nonsense about how they have to hang onto it for a varity of reasons.

In other words they flat out refuse to ever let the horrid colonials get their hands on the corpse of british cricket.

and every ashes since, the Aussies have called loud and proud for a true son of Australia to nick it off em and return to the home soil. After all it is ours by ancient australian right due to the law 'finders keepers losers weepers' and the fact we nicked it first.

Polynikes will of course give you the British version of the above but my version is the fair dinkum truth.

:-)

CombatPainter 27 Dec 2004 10:22 p.m. PST

DJCoaltrain, I must say I only read your post but it reminds me of the Doctor who wouldn't use his acquired knowledge because it was he who had to study in medical school or the lawyer who wouldn't defend the innocent man because he believed the man should have gone on to law school himself and done the work.

*NJH: You may have read my post, but you're thin on perception and understanding. Your above statement is nothing more than an ill-crafted reductio ad absurdum. It's not worth the effort to contradict.

I do help people, quite a bit, when I have the info they require. Sometimes I even photo copy a page or two for them from materials that are OOP. I don't charge them for the photo copies or the postage. I'm willing to help those that may have no idea where to start or have been looking but can't find something. I guess I've always had a soft spot for those that try to help themselves, and I'm generous with them. I freely engage in conversations sharing information and research all the time. However, I don't want to spend my hobby time working for someone who just doesn't want to do any of the work themselves. There is a difference between helping a person complete a project and doing it for them. I have loaned my books to others to read (even the OOP and antique books). One OOP book came back to me waterlogged and ridden with mold (no explanation). I still loan out my materials, to others. I'll help someone in the research and discovery, but I won't do it alone and then hand them the results.

For all those guys that have so much info and don't want to share it, keep it!

*NJH: It's not a matter of sharing, because if only one person brings something to the table top it's not really sharing. It's a matter of initiative and the presence or absence of a personal work ethic. Of course, I know a few people who almost never paint figures or host games, they just show up and play. Well, that's the way they are and that's how they participate in the hobby. I don't begrudge them a place at the table. I don't begrudge a person questions or answers. I would prefer a person give the research the old college try and at least try to find the answers themselves. There is a huge difference between, "I've consulted several sources and tried internet searches but can't find the OOB for the Lower Slobovian Corps of Observation, can anyone help me out," and "I need someone to tell me the OOB for the Lower Slobovian Corps of Observation because I don't want to spend my time reading, researching, or searching the net."

Find a good use for it because if you can't I am sure there are plenty on this board that can tell you what to do with it.

*NJH: This is the type of unwarranted, purposeless, disdainful, and disrespectful discourse that lowers the civility on this site. I posted a perspective on the "to share or not to share" issue and you personally insult me toward no good end and for no good reason. I could have replied in kind with something like this, "I'm sure they could tell me what to do with it, but you'd not see it or hear it, unless you pulled your head out of the cramped silent darkness wherein it currently resides," but I didn't. I think we should restrain ourselves and try to appreciate the various perspectives expressed here, on this issue. I think the opinons expressed here are germane to more than just sharing information, intellectual property issues, or just being stingy hobbyists. It has to do with how people enjoy the hobby - whether we help, loan, share, spread the word, recruit, or engage in altruistic activities relating to the hobby is entirely up to each individual. Chastising people for how they enjoy the hobby is as productive as ranting about the rain in Seattle, Cincinnati's poor pitching, or the BCS. They are all an exercise in pointlessness. Ripping into people because they don't participate in the hobby the way one thinks they should is childish and fails to advance the hobby. IMHO - It's better to accept hobbyists as they are rather than denounce them for what they aren't. Some want to help everyone, some don't, and some are a bit picky about those they help. Our hobby is a large umbrella, I say we keep them all and let each enjoy the hobby in her/his own manner. Could you agree with that?

DJCoaltrain- Well said!

Piquetone - Well said!

Helmet101 -well said!

Pancerni - well said! (From a fellow "Red" state!)

Kudos to you all!

Let me just point out that everything I know about Cricket,
the ashes(or is it "Ashes"?) etc. I learned from "Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy".

And my first exposure to high culture was from Warner Brothers cartoons.

( How is that for a non sequitur?)

Burma!