"Wargaming, Elitism, Snobbery, and the Future?" Topic

I recently enquired about obtaining some basic information that would allow me to 'dip my toes' into what is, for me, a new period. I hoped I might find painting guides and small unit organisation/equipment information on a fan website, and that the ever-helpful TMP community might point me in the right direction.

This would allow me to quickly get some small-scale games organised, with a few vaguely appropriate figures per side, and the right sort of "look" for the period - thus allowing me to see if I really was interested in pouring further effort (and money) into the subject.

I expressly did not want references to a dozen weighty and/or expensive tomes on the subject. I'm not a historian. I want games that "feel right" in the broadest of senses, games that are fun and satisfy my thirst for the "spectacle of war". I don't own any Osprey books, or whatever. I am interested in too many different subjects, from historicals to ultra-moderns to scifi, to make much of an economic or temporal commitment to any one of them.

I hoped someone would help me. But the (only) reply I got went like this:

"...while this site and others enhances the exchange of information it also encourages laziness, which in turn promotes the growing dilitant ["dilettante"?] attitude of many wargamers...bouncing from one period to another without any real investment. Read a book, do some research, "Oh my God, that might require some effort". A big problem and growing every day..."

I mean, come on! Is it a problem that people might want to start gaming a period before they have spent six months researching and building their armies?

Is it completely unreasonably to assume that a person might start with a handful of figures that are broadly appropriate for the subject, but perhaps don't reflect any real unit organisation that ever existed?

Should a new player be, say, ostracised and mocked if he hasn't yet got his paint schemes 100% correct?

It seems to me that what this hobby does NOT need is people saying "you have to do it 100% before you can do it at all". Any thoughts?

Hi Static:

That is an old problem in every gamming community. You will find people that will look at you with disdain if you are not fully commited to a given period as a 'dilettante'. I have found that people from now and then, although I don't give to them much attention, but only to the helping ones.

So, don't care and go on with your projects.

Same answer here. Do what feels right for you, it's a hobby, remember? I'm quite sure my level of painting skills plus the way I put together armies and play them would abhor some. So what? I'm having fun. Naturally, I do listen to advice and follow pointers how to improve on what I'm doing - otherwise I wouldn't be over here.

Static Tyrant - Just go for it! Jump headlong into your new period and enjoy yourself. I believe what you are talking about is a small (but often vocal) minority.

We need people like yourself to come to a new period and try it and have some fun. We also need people like the person who responded (although perhaps with a little more tact!) who will take the effort to research a period to death and come up with new insights and information.

What I love about this hobby of ours is the variety of people, games and opinions. Where else would you find small (sometimes semi-pro) companies rubbing shoulders with the big boys like GW. We have loads of rules (and rule styles - from simulation to a fun game) and periods to choose from.

TMP link

@ Static Tyrant:

I actually don't know whom pancerni adressed?You,westphalia,both of you or the whole world.
Especially at Christmas I would think the latter.:-)
Allthough not to indicate it,could be some 'laziness, which in turn promotes the growing dilitant attitude of many'posters.:-)

I would think some people are not embarrassed to play war with their toy soldiers (like me!)and some need a good reason to do so openly.A lot of them call it historical interest.:-)

Yes, but to spend some time in the Dawghowse, some people are just schmucks. You get purer than thou in a lot of hobbies and wargaming is no exception.

You see it a lot in Video gaming, the "hard-core" gamers lambasting "casual-gamers" ie people who go off and do other things, including maybe enjoying friendships etc.

Ignore the numpties, find a level that suits you and go with it. If itappeals to you then it will drag you in until you before a hardcore fan, if not then nothing much lost

before= become

Hi Static.

What is the period and scale your contemplating?

Ignor the 'raincoat brigade', most of us are human, though we seem to have lapsed in your first request for help, our wrists are well and truely slapped.

That's interesting that you need to complain and try to rally people around you instead of ignoring the guy and making contact with nicer people.

That's interesting your nickname is "Static Tyrant"

take it easy

...and the posts were made on Christmas eve and Christmas, so I doubt a "normal" level of response was received. Just the Scrooge types who complained.

Speaking as one of the elite snobs, I make no apologies to the replies you so accurately rephrase, hopefully to protect the guilty.

At this moment in time, I am specializing in the American Revolution. As an example, I know of ONE online site with information on Hessian uniforms, and these are taken from plates printed AFTER the war was over, and the regiments came home to Hesse. "Thank God we can get rid of those rags, and do some proper soldiering!" was probably the response of most of the officers. This means you need to get those horrible mean books if you want to do some real research.

Basically, want you want is for those who HAVE spent the time and money on research, to give you the fruits of their labor for free. This is the origin of a good majority of the cranky responses. I will help you out by saying "look in Funcken, volume 1, page 47". You don't have to buy it. It just might be in one of the many local libraries within driving distance. I am NOT going to scan out 7 pages of plates on Hessian uniforms. I WILL tell you which books I consider more accurate, and why.

I will help anyone to the best of my ability, as long as I think they appreciate it, and as long as I think that they are actually doing some work themselves.

I get a lot of grief from this attitude, and it does not phase me. "What about the new gamers?" If they are that interested, they will want to do it right. If my attitude scares them away, they weren't all that enthusiastic to begin with. Some grumpy old fart made him give up wargaming? Please. How about the fact that his interest was an inch deep to begin with in the first place? "Give me, give me, give me!" That does not indicate to me an interest. "Show me, please" will always work.

Oh, and one more thing. You consider Osprey books an expensive investment. That, I think, says it all.

Don't have a system suggestion for you as I don't play WW2 era games (tried Gear Krieg once, liked it, but I couldn't find any other players..).

Don't get discouraged by the occasional snide remark - in every niche there are people who live up to their own negative stereotypes, and there are gamers out there who are SO insecure that they assume a "Holier-than-thou" attitude towards anyone who comes to them with questions about anything gaming at all related.

There aren't a whole lot of folks out there like that, but they do tend to be loud, and stand out in the crowd (both in person and online).

AND folks do have a point about Xmas - not many people were online here that day. Try again in a few days.

Actually, I don't consider it snobbish but rather an indicator of the type of games a person likes to play. Because there is an element of truth to it.

If a player wants to learn something of what tactics and battle were like during the period, then the research is pretty much necessary, as is a set of rules that accurately depict the tactical outcomes and decisions of that period. NOTE: "accurate" does NOT equal "detailed" necessarily but rather that the right things are included in the player's decision-making processes that are appropriate to the period. In my opinion, this is the minimum that is necessary to capture the "feel" of the period. Any other "feel" is pure Hollywood (which is not necessarily bad).

On the other hand, if the player wants a game with no basis in reality but is quick to set up and play, then none of that is necessary. Of course, in such a case, you could use just about any figures (e.g., Space Marines versus Zulus) or tokens, for that matter. It isn't inherently "bad" to do so, but there's no real learning about the period. A good example is a WWI game played in skirmish mode with some infantry, a tank, cavalry, and a couple of machineguns per side. Real battles weren't fought that way in WWI (although you could make a good case for infantry skirmish in the Alps, Russia, and the Middle East).

I consider the former to be wargaming, the latter to be gaming (with or without toy soldiers). Depends upon whether you want history and the correct feel or whether you want quick/easy and Hollywood.

"I'm not a historian. I want games that "feel right"

Those two sentences just don't go together for me. You have to be something of an historian to know what the right feel is. The game does NOT have to be horribly and excruciatingly detailed to feel right nor to convey the right results, but they do have to force the player to focus on the right decisions; e.g., in the Marlburian period one of the key decisions would be when to fire the one volley a unit would probably be able to get off before the enemy closed with the bayonet.

hmm, reading from what was answered I can sympathize with JtOFM. But for Chritmas' sake, let's try and see what could bring these two TMPers a bit closer rather than separate them.

The phrasing "show me, please" is a rather nice step in this direction.

Not wanting to be redundant, I'll simply say that OFM summed up my view on the matter better than I could have!

Hrummpf, Hrummpf!
Fred

shame on you for wanting something free. shame on you for asking for help, here of all places! shame on you for assuming there would be anyone willing to share their "knowledge". o.k., i'm really trying to shame others through sarcasm. it's nice to be (self) important, but it is more important to be nice. if i had the info needed, i would share.

Static,

Sounds like you tried to get into Napoleonics. That is the attitude that kept me out of the horse and musket stuff.

Some people are pricks, they feel they shouldn't help you. That is fine, no one is forced to help anyone. I don't think that calling someone a lazy twit because they ask for some information is very helpful to anyone, including the self regarded expert scholar of toy soldier fighting.

Nothing bad can come from someone wanting to dabble in different periods. It starts out as simply wanting to try the game out, but then it grows. I have learnt more history from "dabbling" than from anything else. I see a game and find it interresting, then I gather a little bit of information to start with, and then gather more. Most of my research is done on the web, but for some, I will buy or check out books from the library. What starts out as "dabbling" becomes quite a bit of a learning experience.

Therefore I always will tell someone to "dabble" all they want, and if I have some information on that period, then I will help out. Unfortunately WWI is not one of my strongest points, though I have thought of "dabbling" in that period.

While I can understand the OFM's response and agree with it in the main, I don't think I have ever refused help to somebody who asked for it.

If I have pics or illustrations which will help somebody out, I will always supply them if it is technically possible, but I'm not sure that somebody who considers buying Osprey books economic or temporal investment is all that interested in the topic?

Personally I would consider the Osprey books to be the minimum level of research required to start any new period and I may follow the bibliography trail from the Osprey itself, to research further.

Ospreys certainly are not temporally challenging by any means and you can always just look at the pretty pictures to paint your minis from. Actually I will stop now, because I don't know where I am going with this :-))

Cheers

Frank and a merry Xmas to all :-)

Got two minutes? I'll tell you everything I know.

WW1, all I know is the allies won!

Suggestions: Ignore rude gamers, you have too little time on earth to to bother with them.

Is there a club you attend or nearby(that is not snobby and
have werid requirements for membership)? A club is a great place to learn new periods and gather information.

What about a local con?

The club and con are where I dip my toe into a period without any cost (except due or attendance fee). Last year
wanted to try WW2. Played at the con and club with other
gamers toys. Played a few games, looked over some reference material and decided I did not have the level of interest to warrent diving into.

Snobbery is not limited to horse and musket periods as some have mentioned. Unfortunately it is everywhere and just stinks. In the group I attend, I have most of the info on
Napoleonics etc (no I am not the oracle to end all oracles)and another colonials etc. I research for the love of research and share that infor to anyone who will listen or I can corner in a room. That attitude has made others interested in a period, they then do research and bring information to the table we share. We both win.

The web is alright, but nothing beats finding a gamer for a one on one exchange of information over a game or your favorite refreshment.

Oh yes, Wargames Illustrated had a series on WW1 a few issues ago. I believe they had figures, organizations and brief history.

Going back to the original post again, all I can say is if you want to find out stuff 'on the cheap', how much does a cup of coffee and a couple of hours in the 'Borders' history section cost?

There is an aweful lot to be said for having atleast a _teenie_ bit of initiative!

Fred

Oh, and all this "snobbery" nonsense is a "cop-out". We're talking about WW1 here people not the "Wars of the second Triumvirate." (of which I know little BTW) 8^)

(see earlier post)
Fred

M. le bon. One thread began with the equivalent of "I hear the British wore red. Is that true?" Where to begin?

Static:

One thing worth considering is that many of us see the same question OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER again.

As in, "I'm thinking about starting X, can anyone help me?" Now for you, it is one occurrance...for us, it is seen it, been there, done that...and why didn't you Google first?

Personally , seeing the same question can be exaspering. To avoid getting too snippy, sometimes I answer (when I feel like it) and sometimes I don't (hoping someone else who ISN'T fed up answers).

Google can be your friend: link

Whats wrong with being interested in too many subjects? That seems to be the problem here. He wants to know a little about everything but not be an expert on any of them. Thats about how I feel about it too.

I do agree that some degree of research is necessary and I've been much more happy after I have done so. I know a bit about Romans and Parthians now. However I am brain dead when it comes to later periods. As mentioned Osprey should be a minimum requirement. You can get them for $5 to $15 on the web not a costly involvement.

As far as the self righteousness, sorry guys, but you keep up with the historians only attitude and pretty soon there wont be any new blood in this hobby.

"As far as the self righteousness, sorry guys, but you keep up with the historians only attitude and pretty soon there wont be any new blood in this hobby."

All cliche's and stereotypes aside (which much of this thread seems built upon I'm afraid), There has been little to none of a "historians only attitude" on this thread!

" give a man a fish.... yadda yadda yadda"

Fred

TANSTAAFL

Sorry, John, but I disagree with you. ST in the original thread was asking for some guidance. Yes that guidance of the short of 'you can consult the Ospreys so and so' not a complete uniform guide.

Fifteen years ago I was beggining to collect a miniature army, but my budget was short: 35 dollars. I could order 200 miniatures in 15 mm from Freikorps 15. And that spent all my money. So I convince my parents to buy for me the Funcken as Christmas present. But I was making Hannoverian troops of SYW... and Funcken is short of information in that particular army. My hopes faded. But somewhere I found that in England existed a Seven Years War Association and I sent them a letter requesting help. They give me that help: actually they send me a list -hand made- with all the regiments in the Hannoverian Army, their fancings, standards, ecc. Without asking nothing.

Today I have more money to spend in my hobby. I can begin a new period and buy the miniatures, the rules and the books I will need for it. But I know that everybody has not the time nor the money to do. So if somebody asks for help I remember those lads of the SYW association in England that helped a short-money Spanish wargamer and I help if I can.

BTW:

Those Hannoverians were my FIRST army. I have them yet, although they don't play anymore. I can give them away even if they are a bunch of bad painted and ugly little fellas.

Basic research can be just that: Basic. Google is your friend. Heck even online encyclopediae can be a good start. I am interested in the American Civil War. The first book I bought to get into it, gaming wise, was Fire and Fury. Yes, even starting with a rulebook for the era you are interested in can be a good start. Many of the better books have bibliographies. From there, I added some Osprey books, some others on particular commanders, about three or four on a particular battle, the list goes on. If I were getting into a new period my resources (in order) would be:

TMP (To see what other people are playing, figures they're using, etc.)

Google (Good for finding further information.)

Rulebook (One or more, if your budget allows; good way to see if the rules mirror your idea of how combat worked in the era. Also, some will include scenarios with orders of battle and maybe even painting guides.)

Osprey (Both the unit books and the battle books are an excellent __starting__ point.)

Other books (I divide these into four basic groups: overviews, battles, personalities, equipment. Each should be used in conjunction with the other three.)

Between the internet, libraries and cheap books online, a very minimal investment can be made. One last point to make, movies can be useful, not as research tools, but rather whether a period holds any interest or not. Gladiator got me into EIR, Gettysburg got me into the Civil War.

Basic research won't kill you and can often save you from more expensive miniatures ordering mistakes. I got a bunch of 15mm Babylonians before I realized I had no use for pre-chariot warfare. Damn implulse buys!

1.Medium cafe au lait at Borders coffe counter and a whole day in the history section: $2.30 (plus local tax)

2. Same trip without coffee: free

3. local library visit: free

4. google search at local library( for those without either a computer or internet service): free

5. Price of asking local gamer (or anyone here)what the best reference web sites or books are on the topic of interest: free

6. price of asking same group _specific_ uniform or organisation questions: free

7. cost of joining a yahoo group (or similar) on that period: free

These are my _unsnobbish_ suggestions

Fred

I find it strange that historical wargamers of which I am one would not want to share their knowledge of a certain period. It seems to be in a lot of the games I have played in, the wargamers there seem to love to point out how knowledgeable thay are, sharing the most obscure information one can possibly imagine about any era we are playing.

There are all kinds of gamers but I think Jizbrand had two good categories to start. I myself fit into both categories depending on the genre.

I provide information freely to those who need it. I've found in my own WWII research that there is so much information out there I will never likely know. I like exchanging sources with others because it is a timesaver.

Someone who doesn't spend anytime on research doesn't bother me. There are genres I collect but have only a cursory knowledge of. The end to the means is the game. You don't need to know the angle of elevation of type X gun and how many were produced in 1944 because it is either accounted for in the game rules or it isn't.

Ultimately we get together to play a game. Debating history is fun but if it were primary we would leave the figures home and meet at the library. Historical research is, I believe, a separate but synergistic discipline that partners well with wargaming. I enjoy both gaming and research but respect that some folks only have the resources (time, money, interest) to enjoy one and not the other.

Ya know, I regularly get it from both sides, but I will have to admit, in my experience the non-historical gamers are more tolerant. they may not want to play Napoleonics or ancients any thing, but they don't make fun of me because I play it. They say more or less, no thanks, I don't really want to do anything else other than 40k or warmachine or whatever.

The snooty historical types can be summed up in one example. I was playing a fire and fury game at my local store, and after 3 hours of endless debate as to "the authors intention vs what gen. so and so would have done, based on the readings and writings of so and so, that this scenario never would have happend because so and so would not have committed troops because of shortages and the weather, etc... Further more such such brigade was understrength and the horse were exhausted from the long ride from such and such etc..." By this time I was bored out of my mind and charged my little 10 stand unit into 2 full brigades?? of 24 stands each across the open field. These were fully supported units with arty and so on. and I was completed wiped out. After this action one of the "so wizened armchari generals told me, and I quote "This is'nt 40k, you actually have to think about what you are doing."

Sadly, the wizened general did not have enough sense to realize that charging into 4 to one odds at a minimum was suicide and as such allowed me to leave the game and go home.

Now this is not all historicals, I am quite the little lead junkie and I love playing historical, sci-fi and fantasy and I have some friends that I play with and have the best time doing while at it, but every now and again you will find a couple of morons so think themselves so affluent in some period that they are able to verbally bully one into submission to their superior intellect and understanding and that to argue with them is foolhardy and only shows that youare barely capable of using an opposable thumb.

So, in a nutshell, have fun, do a little looking aroiund to make sure you get the right colors "Napoleonic Brits were not known for the WW1 era brown uniform", and ignore the know it alls and eventually they will go away.

GAR, mini lover and all around game whoe!!

advice -

decide what theatre

buy one or 2 ospreys and a set of rules. you will have enough information to pour over to decide.

I have a selfish interest to recommend War in Africa. Great bunch of small scale skirmishes and lots of colorful battles. Plus they were the last germans to surrender in the war!
Osprey has a great book - Armies of East AFrica - will cost you about $12-15. You can use Contemptible Little Armies, Trench Wars, etc. for Rules.

Minis:
link

Rules:
link

snobbery - yes in historicals many will want you to show some basic knowledge of a period before offering any advice.

Where did it come out that historical gamers did not want to share? There is an awful lot of stuff you can do before you get stumped. Announcing in advance that you can't be bothered with books ("weight tomes" is believe is the phrase used) is not the best way to get the information you covet.

"What's this about facings?"

"Oh, those are collars, cuffs and lapels."

"Are they important?"

"Well, if you want to tell regiments apart."

"How can I do that?"

"Well, Mollo has a list, and so does Funcken and..."

"Oh, no. Those are books. Just tell me what I need to know to paint this regiment. What is the exact Vallejo paint I need? Hey, I don't want to have to buy the whole damn bottle! Give me some of yours..."

Perhaps the veterans of a genera should decide if they want to play new oponents who turn up with miniatures in the 'correct' uniform or not if it is SO important they should give a helping had.

Alternatively you could invest in something like Alternative Armies Flintloque range because no one can agree what colour an Orc is yet alone what colour cuffs and braiding their officers should be wearing!

The advantage of fantasy perhaps? No- just try using a replacement figure in a generic rules system with accompanying figure range no doubt.

This is why someone needs to do a "Flames of War" or a "Games Workshop" on pre-WW historicals.

Look at the number of people flocking to WWII gaming as a result of FoW, and the hordes of kids in GW on a Saturday Afternoon playing 40K, WHF and LotR. These may not be your cup of tea but they are bringing new blood into a hobby which desperately need it.

If we want historicals to grow, to attract more people, then the beginners will need some real help - painting guides, army lists, pre-packaged regiments, well written supplements. Maybe even starter army sets with all of the above, just like FoW.

I would like to add one comment. I often find the local library or bookstore to be less than adequate for finding resource materials. In the USA I can find an over abundance of books about AWI, ACW, WW2 and Vietnam and less than nothing about any other period. If Americans were not involved it seems there is a complete lack of materials.

I love Osprey

"All cliche's and stereotypes aside (which much of this thread seems built upon I'm afraid), There has been little to none of a "historians only attitude" on this thread!"

You're right there hasn't been, I was referring to the inflammatory remarks this post was written about.

I can see both sides of the arguement going on here. I think elcid1099's comments pretty much sum up my feelings on the matter.

Gar, I've run into morons like this as well. One was so arrogant he just ignored my question about his units like I was an ant crawling on the floor, LOL! Bottom line, their loss not mine. When games start to mean more to some than people, its time to rethink the whole matter!

Hey Rog, good to hear from ya. Yes, there always seems to be one idiot that cannot be bothered with "such simple questions". Who says young obnoxious kids are the only annoying ones. But the majority of historicals are fairly decent fellows that are quite willing to help out one way or another. Plus they bathe, something that I hope will become more common in the Sci-fi crowd.

Now all I need is time to play a couple of games and I will be good to go.

"Plus they bathe, something that I hope will become more common in the Sci-fi crowd."

Not always, LOL. I knew some acw guys in ohio, whose table you couldn't get within ten feet of.

link

The above link is to the Renegade Miniatures site. Specifically their articles page, where there are several articles giving background for the excellent 28mm figures they sell.

And, from Foundry, a painting guide:

link

I didn't even have to google those...

Static Tyrant:

You don't need to spend a lot of time and money researching your historical armies. However do not expect me to do it for you. You asked for a free website with WWI TOE information. Nobody provided one, probably because one doesn't exist. So you start a thread 'complaining' about snobby historical gamers because someone didn't run out and make the huge investment in time and money to provide you information you really don't care about anyway.

Research takes time, just like painting. If you are short of time you can use money to acquire materials that aid research, called "books". If you don't want to spend time or money, then you don't have a researched army. Nothing wrong with that, you can still push it around the table and roll dice and made expolsion noises, its just not 'historically accurate'.

Rich

"I will have to admit, in my experience the non-historical gamers are more tolerant"

I used to think that that was true, but over the last ten years, I've seen just the reverse. My SF company must be painted in the color scheme dictated by the game manufacturer or else I can't use it to play. The single most outstanding figure in my fantasy army, around which I've built a theme, can't be used because it isn't a sanctioned figure the the game manufacturer's inventory.

That kind of snobbery goes both ways, just as I've been told that I can use a particular regiment to refight Waterloo because their facings are field green instead of grass green.

Nevertheless, I'm always willing to help someone out providing they're willing to do some of the work too. I'm NOT willing to provide all the information I've spent years amassing because someone doesn't want to do a little bit of reading. I'm perfectly happy to share the nuggets of information I've gleaned about the PzB41's performance characteristics because that is genuinely hard to find. But, to satellite off JtOFM's comment, I'm not willing to spend a lot of time on basic uniform colors or things that can be found by a simple Google search.