"French Light Infantry Blue" Topic

Hi Everyone –
Was this a different Blue? Some Plates show it was but I have heard people say it was a mistake and a myth ?

Mistake and a myth. It is some form of dark / navy blue depending on who you talk to but in any case it is the same blue dye used for the line battalions.

Cheers,

The bandit

Because of fading you could have different blues in the same unit. The supplies of indigo were an ongoing problem for the French throughout the wars.

The Osprey 'Napoleon's Light Infantry' played a part in creating this myth. The plates – particularly the one featured on the cover – showed the uniforms as mid-blue. I know I'm not the only one who ended up painting their light infantry in a different hue from the line because of this.

A most interesting discussion for me, as I'm just about to put the highlights on a batch of French light infantry (2e Legere)! On a visit to the Musee de l'Armee some years ago, I was very struck by one of the display cases (not sure if it's still there post the re-refurbishment). This had two officers' coats/habits side-by-side, one of line, the other of light infantry. The line officer's coat was a rich, dark, royal blue, while the light officer's coat was a lighter almost greyish blue (a little like an RAF blue I thought). The effect of fading or a different batch of dye? Possibly, but I'm not so sure.

Probably due to fading. I think all of the plant based dyes were unstable in sunlight and rain. When I was doing ACW reenacting, I purchased an expensive Confederate coat which was dyed using 1860's type materials. Within just a few days the grey took on a distinct tawny color. It was evident also that under the belts it remained grey but the parts exposed to the sun changed color.

The best blue paints , imho, are the Adrea Blue Paint set.Excellent colors. subtle shading, and they dry desd flat.
Regards,
John

Bleu foncé, isn't it? The same imperial blue as the ligne. It fades to a violet-greyish kind of blue. So if you wanna depict faded uniforms don't use mid blues or greyish blues; it remains a darker tone, more violet than grey, still a dark blue.

Neither sun nor rain affects indigo, only wear.

Of course, the assumptions are that:

1. The museum didn't dye/redye the coats or obtain one that was stored well and the other wasn't.
2. The military suppliers during the twenty years of war all used the same dye formula with the same success.
3. That there was a standard formula.
4. That French officers, who bought their own uniforms, would all be standard colors.
5. That the fade rate would be the same for all uniforms in all climates [Spain and Egypt vs Northern Europe]

None of which are safe assumptions.

The 'uniformity' of dyes and uniforms was anything but uniform during the period. Not only because it was difficult to obtain uniformity with clothing, but that there was a different attitude towards uniformity because of it.

The idea was to have a whole regiment have their uniforms all made at the same time from the same batch of cloth to hopefully insure similarity in color.

That didn't produce uniformity between line and legere units.

I read where one British unit received new red coats, and were happy with the redder than brick color until they crossed a stream. The coats came out pink below the waterline.

Remember, the uniforms were made by the lowest bidders…

In other words, if you paint the uniform a medium to dark blue, you are well within the 'hisorical' window.

Personally, I'd paint the uniforms of the Lights a bit more faded. Reaper's Denim triad will be high on my 'to-buy' list, once I get around to the French 15mm troops.

A question about these guys in Spain… were French light infantry battalions more likely to be brigaded together in 2-3 battalion units or split out to join brigades of line infantry with 1 light and a couple of line battalions?

Both the commonly used blue dyes, indigo and Prussian blue, came out with a mid-blue hue (notwithstanding that indigo is usually associated with a purplish shade.

There was considerable variation in brightness (colour intensity) and darkness (the amount of black or white you would mix into a bright hue). New uniforms would tend to be quite dark, veteran ones faded.

That gives you a lot of room for artistic licence. It would also be realistic to have slightly different blues from regiment to regiment – and even within a regiment, though that would create aesthetic problems.

The traditional method of clothing issue in the French Army prior to the 1st Empire was to re-equip 1/3 of the regiment at a time. I assume this was retained for the three-battalion demi-brigades of the Republic and Consulate, but I'm not sure what happened when 4th and subsequent battalions were raised.

Neither sun nor rain affects indigo, only wear.

A frequently reiterated and literally true statement, but at the same time one of the most misleading of ever in wargamers Napoleonics. Indigo fades by wear, true, but mostly by washing. And that includes heavy rains (storms, typhoons, etc.) and river-crossing. You do the math. That's the same with blue jeans. And "blue" jeans come in very different hues.

A question about these guys in Spain… were French light infantry battalions more likely to be brigaded together in 2-3 battalion units or split out to join brigades of line infantry with 1 light and a couple of line battalions?

In the orders of battle I've seen, usually the battalions of French light infantry regiments were kept in the same brigade rather than divided out between several brigades.

Regards

Thanks bud.

Neither sun nor rain affects indigo, only wear.

And rarely was indigo the only color used in the dye, as pointed out elsewhere…

Indigo fades by wear, true, but mostly by washing.

As far as I know, no, but prove me wrong.

Keep in mind that this was dyed wool and wears a good deal better than cotton.

In the orders of battle I've seen, usually the battalions of French light infantry regiments were kept in the same brigade rather than divided out between several brigades.

Yes, the Spanish French organization was in a timewarp of sorts. They retained the 1805-07 organizations and practices, including 9 company battalions after the rest of the army had gone to 6 companies. The same is true with having legere brigades as those found in 1805-6.

According to Funken because of the blockade France couldn't get regular supplies of indigo, hence the change to white coats. Afterwards woad was substituted and blue came back. Woad does give a different shade of blue than indigo, and it fades differently. How accurate Funken's statement is I don't pretend to know.

I've just read an article by Michel Petard ('Uniformes' magazine) and he says that the light infantry coats were made of the same dark blue cloth as those of the line. So, in line with the other commentators here, I have to conclude that the two coats displayed in the Musee de l'Armee show the effect of fading or of a different mix/type of dye, as opposed to a distinctive colour worn by the light infantry. I knew this thread would be useful: now I know how to highlight my 2e Legere!

As a sidenote, there was a blue dragoon uniform at the musee. I wondered how that could be, untill someone told med that to get green you first dye it bue then yellow – so when it fades it turns blue – any opinions?

I also have heard this. This may have no bearing, but in Tolstoy's War and Peace, French dragoons are described as wearing blue. I just thought this was an error on Tolstoy's part, and it probably is. But I've heard about this particular fading issue elsewhere.

Woad produces an indigo dye, less concentrated than that of the Indian indigo plants. It behaves the same way.

link

I'm sure that even amongst officers who bought their own uniforms there would be variance, due to the means available to one officer or another. One might buy an idigo dyed coat, the other a woad dyed coat. Also, I'm sure their "best" coat would be better quality than their "fighting" coat.

The colour of Leger clothing is definitely the same Imperial Blue as the Ligne.
But the myth does not really originate with the otherwise excellent Osprey volume. A number of the Leger plates by the great Lucien Rousselot have completely false colour values (several shades too pale and 'milky') and this mistake was taken up by the Osprey illustrator.

Thank you all for the imput …….. Normal Line Blue it is !!!

woolen cloth was not washed – my re – enactment dark blue coat gots darker due to dirth and camp fire smoke and it did not fade at all.
For the French light infantry – I could supply contemporary prints from light blue to a very dark blue.
In case for colour illustrations – most modern works should be discarded – and instead it is better to look at books like

Napoleon's soldiers by Dempsey Jr. – The Grand Armée of 1807 as Depicted in the Paintins of the Otto Manuscript – or even better at the original plates.

It is evident that the artist did see some different shades of blue – compare 9.th light infantry with 16th.

"woolen cloth was not washed"
Indeed. In the Russian service, it was a punishable offense for the rankers to wash their uniform coats. There was brushing and airing in the wind to remove dirt, and blotting with various preparations and methods to remove grease or stains.

- Sasha

it was forbidden most likley in all armies, one would ruin a coat by washing it – it was brushed or whipped – clean, or painted – especially for white uniforms.
Pieces made of linen or cotton were indeed washed – they would fade

"beaten" rather than "whipped" ;-)

didn't the French carry a small whip – the martinet, forgot how it was called, but to bit the dirt out of it – sounds much better than to whip the dirt out of it ;-)).