"war of the spanish succession or 7years war" Topic

my chief passion will always be napoleonic. however i need a change. these two periods tempt me most. i am familiar with the history but not the figures,rules etc. i would appreciate some guidance in this. pros and cons etc. thanks, charles

I much prefer the SYW and War of Austrian Succession over the War of Spanish Succession. In my opinion (YMMV) the uniforms are more diverse and colorful, cavalry is a more potent force, the armies are less "static" and it is on the way to becoming a maneuver and firepower world compared to more of a slugging match when a siege forces you to give battle.

I chose to do WSS because of all the uniform colors. The French have not only grey but blue (Wallon), red Swiss, yellow ect. On the allied side there are Danes, Dutch, British, Swiss, Austrian all the minor german states ect. There is more cav in WSS up to 40% of an Army. I like that the combatants are not the strict robot soldiers of later years. Depending on what year or area you do there are some pikes still around. Plenty of info available. Prussia doesnt "Rule the Battlefield" sweeping all before them, in fact IMHO all the combatants are fairly matched.
SYW is more popular and they do look good on the table too. Some of the cons to WSS can be popularity, and there is a lot of conflicting info so if you want a really minor unit finding uniform colors and flags can be a challenge. Also WSS tend to be bigger battles. I went 18mm WSS there are a lot of great figures out there. I do rank firing units in 3 ranks and platoon firing in 2. Its the start of the tricorn era what could be better!

Plus, in the WWS the officers' wigs are much more awesome.

WSS has simpler uniforms, and is mostly easier to paint.

Yes your right none of that powdered wig stuff! And don't forget the French had some 3 barreled cannons during the WSS.

Khurasan's 18mm WSS range is reason alone to pick the WSS.

Another vote for the WSS. None of this technical mumbo jumbo. Just get in there and shoot it out!

We do WSS down the club. I think we have about 50+ battalions with 60 to 70 figures per battalion in 6mm and as many squadrons. I love WSS as there are no real super troops. Its all about the best general. I much prefer it to Napoleonic's. WSS all the way for me in horse and musket. We use home grown rules that have been 10 years in development.

Thanks jtipp!

I would do WSS if your primary period is napoleonic. It's differenter.

You still have some troops in steel helmets! And some of the infantry are 4-5 ranks deep. Some even had a small stand of pikemen, very picturesque. More of a change for you and your mates.

Not to say I don't love the SYW though. Great period.

ANd if it is diversity you want, Austrians vs Turks, Swedes Vs anyone and everyone pretty much in the GNW and Spanish and Catalans fighting on. A great period.

To risk a dissenting vote, I love the SYW – while all the points about WSS are true, I love those tight jackets and cocked tricornes; plus, the SYW was really the 1st World War

You can't go wrong with either period. I believe that there are 3 companies releasing GNW figures in 2014.

I don't know a lot about the WSS, but my perception is that the battles are larger, almost Napoleonic in size, compared to those of the SYW. Some of the WSS armies do not yet use the cadenced march step, so movement was a little slower. Artillery doesn't seem to move once it is deployed.

I think that the uniforms/cut of the cloth/tricorn hats are what first attracted me to the SYW. Over the years I have managed to acquire more books about the period and have been able to learn more about the SYW. The more I read, the better I like the period.

I think that the pros and cons of each period probably mirror one another, so maybe just go with what looks good to you.

Another vote for WSS, although I love SYW as well. We use Pendrakens's 10mm range. I have just bought loads of their League of Ausburg range as well, only a few years separate the two , but I think uniforms are even more diverse in LoA period. Using 10mm figures, possible to use many of the figures to cover both wars. I think someone mentioned Great Northern War above, so can involve Swedes and Russians as well as Poles, Danes etc. I think the 20 year period from 1690 (William's Wars in Ireland) through the 9YW and on into 1710 gives great scope, especially if you like massed cavalry. As for rules, I particularly like Last Twilight of The Sunking for big games. Have used Polemos, which are OK, but really need an experienced player to guide you through. I hear good things about Under the Lily Banners, although never played it. It would also be possible to push Black Powder back to 1700 or Pike and Shotte forward.
Can't agree with the comment above re " static period" . Marlborough's victories were all achieved by clever strategic and tactical manoeuvring. There is scope for the general of genius to fully use their talents in this era. There were a lot of sieges and that could bring in an interesting new dimension to your gaming.

Of course you can also do both (;-)).
For the WSS: read Charles Spencer – Blenheim, battle for Europe. The list of primary sources includes a Scottish captain or major, named Blackadder…

For more information about the battle see here:
link

Go WSS era but go east to the Great Northern War. Great assymetrical sides.

many many thanks for your input who can on one end resist those longer wigs flapping about the head like a beagles ears at full tilt in the hunt lol. i may be wrong but it does seem more countries are involved in the war of the spanish succession. best uniform info on other? miniatures?

I like them both…sorry, no help to you at all!

WSS is easier to paint though, as has already been mentioned.

Marlburian Wars.

Impossible to help you! I love both periods and solved the dilemma by having 28mm armies for WSS and SYW!

Seven Years War will give greater diversity of actions and theaters of operation, greater diversity of uniforms to paint, and a more table friendly game. You can chose from several theaters in Europe or move to North America or India. The challenge geographically is the various theaters don't really share troops so you have to paint a lot of figures to get all options. WSS, while 'pretty' is pretty static – might as well play ancients since you get lines in place that fire at each other until one or the other charges and either breaks the enemy or breaks itself.

But, yeah, those Khurasan figures are top notch.

WAS is my preference. More countries; Jacobites; what more could you ask!

Play both, own Marlburlian figs, 18mm Blue Moon though in the past I owned and sold off 15mm Edition Brokaws and 6mm collections too. Much prefer WSS and GNW.

But both have much to enjoy.

For uniform information see:
link
Click on the (blue) brigades names.

Very tough choice.

SYW has tons of literature and compelling personalities. WSS has less literature and fewer standout commanders.

WSS has the potential for HUGE armies and a much higher proportion of horse.

SYW has more varieties of troop types who are often more versatile; less horse; more effective artillery.

Both wars have gorgeous uniforms but SYW is more fussy to paint.

SYW armies are often modest in scale compared to Napoleonics and the massive battles of the WSS.

I've spent more on WSS but shelved the project as it grew too large. As it stands, I am looking at SYW with Baccus 6mm minis and Final Argument of Kings for rules. Doable and fun.

IMO, play a couple of games of each before making up your mind.

PS – be sure to look at the Great Northern War.

Imho is 7YW much more interesting for wargamers then WSS:
-7YW armies are smaller
-consists of more different kind of troops (light troops and jäger, hors artillery)
-interesting uniforms

the WSS is often just a slugfest

as said, just my 2 cents

-7YW armies are smaller

The campaigns in the low countries were conducted in a rather fertile area with a very large network of fortresses to support the armies. Battles were therefore larger. WSS battles in Germany, Italy, and Spain were usually smaller, and similiar in size to SYW.

-consists of more different kind of troops (light troops and jäger, hors artillery)

I really don't think these troops had a significant part in the major battles of the SYW. They were more involved with "le petite guerre". Dragoons often filled this role in the WSS.

-interesting uniforms

Both SYW and WSS had interesting and colorful uniforms. WSS is somewhat easier to paint because of the simpler cut of the uniforms.

-the WSS is often just a slugfest

Clearly an oversimplification. A peron passionate about Napoleonics could say the same thing about the SYW.

Something else to point out, if you want to avoid buying hundreds of books for what ever period you choose, for the SYW here is everything you need to know…

link

There is a lot out there for the WSS, but nothing compares with Project SYW…

I like both periods. Both in 15mm (mainly). Figure wise, for WSS I ended up with…

British/Hessians – Essex Miniatures

French/Bavarians – Roundway Miniatures

The latter are still very nice, have a wide variety of figures and accessories, plus the added advantage of being incredibly cheap. Although I believe they did go up in price last year (I bought them in 2012 and they were £1.55 GBP a pack)

For the SYW, I ended up using Minifigs. Still lovely figures after all these years. I tried a lot of other ranges, but these are the nicest and the most appropriate for the SYW. Their style just so fits the Age of Reason… That said, I've also just picked up some of DAF's 1/56th scale figures. Lurvely they are and he is a really nice chap to relieve you of your hard earned…!

Rules, I've mainly settled on Maurice. A good fun and exciting game. The use of National Characteristics allows them to be used for both wars.

Also, there is Minden Rose for the SYW. Again a good set of solid rules. I bought my copy years back, but they are now available for free on the net. You can get them from here…

link

I've also been thinking about using Rank and File from Crusader Publishing. I got a copy from North Star during there sale a couple of months back and they do look good..

There is also the fallback of Black Powder and it's C18 supplement, Last Argument of Kings. Lot's of others say good things about these rules, but I have never played them, despite owning them…

Another suggestion is Sam Mustafa's other set of C18 rules, Might and Reason. More for big battles and only available as only available as a pdf..

You also have the old stalwart Warfare in the Age of Reason.

Lastly, there is Beneath the Lilly Banners (2nd Edition) for the WSS and GNW.

With the SYW, the hardest part can be deciding on which part to game. British/German-French, Prussian-Austrian or Prussian-Russian and this is before leaving Europe!

Being of a rather Anglocentric nature, I would suggest going for Anglo-French armies to start, giving you the option to reuse (if you are not too much of a button counter) your troops in Canada, the Caribbean or India with the addition of some local allies. Indeed the French 'could' be used to stand in for Spanish, opening up even more options…

If you go for the WSS, you might want to invest in some Vauban fortifications to lay siege to. This may add an extra dimension to your games. Also, don't forget that it isn't just about Marlborough (no really, it isn't…) and you could instead set your games in either Italy or Spain. Personally I like the idea of the campaign in Spain and there was a supplement made available by someone on TMP about the War in Catalonia. A very good supplement. A TMP search should turn this up.

Others have mentioned the GNW. I've always wondered whether this would be too one sided to give a good game. Regular GNW may be able to give better feedback on this aspect.

I think you will enjoy either period, after all, real men fight in Tricornes…

I am not sure if this SYW army would be considered an encouragement or a discouragement:

link

For a proper change from Napoleonics, I would recommend the Spanish Succession or Great Northern War over the Seven Years War. The latter is still different from Napoleonics, of course, but you start seeing developments like more mobile artillery, light infantry, or dragoons as battle cavalry. Also, the smaller amount of uniform detail known about the earlier period might be perceived as refreshing…

Others have mentioned the GNW. I've always wondered whether this would be too one sided to give a good game. Regular GNW may be able to give better feedback on this aspect.

There is a lot more to the GNW than the Russians vs Swedes battles that many wargames seem to focus on. For much of the war pre-Poltava period the bulk of the Swedish forces were focused on fighting the Saxons and their Polish allies with the Russians turning up from time to time. In the battle of Kalisz you even have a Polish-Swedish army fighting a Saxon-Polish-Russian army. The Saxon army was better than it's reputation, at the start of the war it was a trained professional force which had fought the Ottomans alongside the Austrians in the preceding decades. Heavy losses did dilute the quality of the troops and the demoralisation of repeated defeats did not help but despite this it took years to defeat the Saxons and post-Poltava they rejoined the fray again.

Then you have the Danes, they may have been outmanouvered and forced to make peace in 1700 but they made up for their lack of fighting the Swedes by seeing a lot of action in the WSS as well as fighting against the Kurucs in Hungrary. So when they rejoined the GNW in 1709 a good part of the army was experience and well trained in up to date tactics. While they did lose the battles of Helsingborg and Gadebusch they did put up a very stout fight and the battles were lost due to command errors and unlucky circumstances rather than poor troops. It's a good looking army too, you get elite units in red and yellow, line troops in grey and some esoteric units like a native Danish cavalry regiment wearing full Austrian-style cuirassier equipment complete with helmet as well as "Hungarian" dragoons in fur caps.

GNW still has troops with pikes, too! Plus Jacobite involvement!

Dont forget Danish gunners violet coats with green cuffs!

Here is a dynamic to consider.
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Infantry lines in 1700 were up to six ranks deep and widely spaced apart front to back – something like 6'. If you do the WSS, you might want to think about the look of it all. The usual two ranks of miniatures will be okay if that is what you want -- naturally. But basing infantry say 3-4 ranks deep would give a more historical look.
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Very respectfully,
Bill
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PS See The Background of Napoleonic Warfare by Robert S. Quimby for verification. Quimby also remarks that WSS forces were ponderous – slowly moving. But that is up to you.
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Disclaimer:
The SYW is bar none my favorite. My 1640s ECW infantry are based four deep to give a different look as explained above.

I mount my 18mm WSS rank firing in 3 ranks with officer and drummer out front so the middle stand looks like it has 4 ranks. My platoon firing infantry is 2 ranks deep with again officer and drummer out front. My 3 rank battalions are narrower than my 2 rank battalions.

many thanks gentlemen for your advice. In 15 to 18 mm figures for 7yw any suggestions?

Since you're based in the States, Old Glory has a pretty complete range which is affordable and paints up nicely.

link

Eureka are even nicer and mostly compatible, but more expensive, and have no British/Hanoverian troops yet. Their Russian range on the other hand includes all the wagons and animals you might want for a baggage train (of any nationality).

link

My own collection is for the western theatre, Anglo-Allied vs. French and Saxons, and thus from Old Glory. If I had to start again I might go for Prussia vs. Austria or Russia, with OG infantry and hussars and Eureka heavy cavalry (Eureka horses being on the big side for light cavalry).

Have fun!