"Indian Reconnaissance Regiments" Topic

"Though the Indian Army usually followed British practices, they would often have their own variation on it. The Indian Reconnaissance Regiments had arrived in North Africa as recently reorganised motorised cavalry units, having only been converted from horse-mounted cavalry.

After being assigned the role of divisional cavalry to the Indian Divisions, they so found their organisation unsuitable for their reconnaissance role. They began to convert to the more standard divisional cavalry organisation with the addition of light tanks and tracked carriers or Indian pattern wheeled carriers with limited levels of success.

When the war moved to Italy the Indian divisions joined the fight there and set about reorganising to a new structure based on the British divisional Reconnaissance Regiment pattern. However, the structure of the British units was not completely followed. The Indian regiments had just six armoured cars in each squadron, two in the HQ and four in a single troop. They also only got just eight Universal Carrier in two troops of four vehicles. A fourth troop was fielded mounted in Jeeps and the final troop was a rifle platoon organised much like a British motor platoon mounted in White Scout cars…"

See here
link

Hope you enjoy!.

Amicalement
Armand

Were there any Indian units in the norther Europe theater? France, Belgium, into Germany.

No, there were not my friend.

Amicalement
Armand

The given organisation is only really applicable to the Central India Horse. The DCO Lancers and Skinner's Horse were very short of Humber Armoured Cars (only 2-3 per Sqn). The deficiency was then made up by the incorporation of Greyhounds. The CIH were also the only regiment of the three to have really gone in for Jeep patrols – the other two regiments seem to have stuck chiefly with Carriers.

The list strangely doesn't include regimental elements such as the regimental Heavy Troop and Mortar Troop:

The Mortar Troop had 6x 3-inch Mortars usually carried by Universal Carriers. However, the Central India Horse had SP mortars, mounted in India Pattern Wheeled Armoured Carriers. The Indian Cavalry Regiments in Burma similarly used SP mortars of this pattern. Mortars were usually allocated at Sqn level, as sections of two mortars each.

The Heavy Troop was different in each regiment:
The DCO Lancers had 6x M3 75mm GMCs
Skinner's Horse had 6x AEC Mk II 6pdr Armoured Cars
The Central India Horse had 6x Staghound Mk II 3-inch CS Armoured Cars
There was also a command vehicle in each Heavy Troop (probably an M3A1).
Again, these could be divided up as 2-car sections and attached at Sqn level.

Bob, as Tango says; no Indian formations or units were used in NW Europe (aside from some sappers in 1940, iirc). Indian Cavalry regiments were well used in Burma, however.

Am I imagining it, or was this not in the FoW board earlier?

Mods, this should really be in the Flames of War board rather than WW2 Media.

How different were the units that fought in Burma?

@R Mark Davies,could have a look at this:
link

Cheers
LES

Hi Les,

Sorry mate, I'm not a member any more, so can't access the link. There was a lot of discussion on Indian Cavalry Regiments on the old FoW Research forum until they deleted it all.

Skeptic,

Indian Armoured Car Squadrons in Burma were organised as follows:

SHQ in Scout Cars and/or India Pattern Wheeled Carriers
2x Armoured Car Troops (I can't find exact orgs for these, but they had a mix of Armoured Cars and Scout Cars)
3x Rifle Troops (15cwt Trucks or Jeeps – Carriers left in India)
1x Mortar Troop (2x 3-inch mortar mounted in IP Wheeled Carriers)

Armoured Cars were usually Fox Mk II or Daimler (at least one regiment used both types), possibly with the odd Humber Mk IV thrown in. The Fox II was almost identical to the Humber IV except with Browning in lieu of Besa co-ax. Fox armoured cars are often mis-described as 'Humbers', even in regimental war diaries and official accounts.

There was no regimental Mortar Troop of Heavy Troop.

Regiments serving in Burma were:

8th (King George V's Own) Light Cavalry – served as 19th Indian Division's recce regiment in 1945, equipped with a mixture of Daimlers and 'Humbers'.

11th (Prince Albert Victor's Own) Light Cavalry – served as IV Corps, then XXXIII Corps recce regiment from 1944-45, equipped with Daimlers.

16th Light Cavalry – served as XIVth Army recce regiment in 1945, equipped with a mixture of Daimlers and 'Humbers'.

Note that there was also the Armoured Wing of the 3rd Gwalior Lancers (Indian States' Forces) with XV Corps in the Arakan. I've no idea how they were organised of what equipment they had, but it was most probably distinctly non-standard and obsolete. In any case, they were withdrawn quite early on, with the XV Corps armoured recce role going to 81 (West African) Recce Regiment, equipped with Carriers and 'Scout Cars' of an unidentified type.

Hi Les,
Sorry mate, I'm not a member any more, so can't access the link.

Sorry to read that.
Take its OK to cross post info?

LES

I guess so :)

Forgot to mention earlier that the Scout Cars in Burma were a mix of Dingo and Lynx.

Thanks, RMD! By the way, I gather that the soldiers in some Indian Army units were actually British from the UK – which units had Indian personnel, and which were British? More specifically, were the Indian Light Cavalry regiments fully Indian?

Interesting info on the Heavy Troops. First I've seen of anyone using the AECII apart from those shipped to Tito.

I'll cross-post my comments from the other forum for those that are no longer members. I was involved in the discussion on the old forum as well. Mark, there are a few areas of disagreement between my research and yours. But some of this is reading tea leaves and choosing which source you trust, because different sources have limited specificity and often conflict. Plus TOE's and reality often diverge.

First I posted this:

"A few years back, I spent way too much time researching this. I collected and read histories on all the units, a few combined histories, and communicated with a member of 6DCO (who sent me his limited run book on 6DCO). Below are a few comments from a brief review of some notes.

First on the Jeeps: They were on all three units (6 DCO, CIH, Skinner's) TOE, but only CIH received all its jeeps them and deployed them as troops of 6 in each squadron.

On the Heavy Armored Cars: Each Regiment had 8 M3 GMC or AEC armoured cars (The sources are a little confused on this, my best information is that Skinner's had AEC II (specific source mentions 6pdr), CIH originally had GMCs, but transferred their GMCs to 6DCO when they left Italy, 6DCO had AEC's prior to receiving the GMC's). They were officially organized in a single heavy support troop under RHQ, but in my reading I found instances of them being deployed in groups of two, as well as being the full troop. According to at least one source I read, the AEC's were not well loved because they tended to bog down and fall behind the Humbers and Carriers that were rushing to secure the next bridge after a breakthrough.

On the mortar units: In 6DCO small (two mortars + two carriers) troops were initially placed to each squadron. Later they were grouped in a single six mortar troop under RHQ that could be deployed to support a given squadron. The CIH toe shows this larger group under the RHQ.

On the greyhounds: From my notes, when 6DCO went to greyhounds, they went to two troops of three greyhounds per troop, one of four humbers, and one of four carriers.

On the double units of Humbers in Skinner's horse: I could find no real secondary source to support two units of humbers per squadron .I think the cited website is wrong.

Some additional random notes:

Here are the ethinic groups for each regiments squadrons

6DCO
A Jat
B Sikh
C Punjabi Muslim

CIH
A Hindustani Muslim
B Dogra
C Jat

Skinner's Horse
A Rajput
B Hindustani Muslim
C Jat

The most comprehensive TOE is from King George V.'s Own Central India Horse by A. A. Filose – The book has a written TOE and a separate chart. They have a few areas of disagreement but generally cover the early 1 humber unit plus carrier unit TOE and read (my comments in parentheses):

1) RGT HQ
a. 1Men – 5 BO 2 VCO 28 IOR
b. Vehicles – 2 armored cars, 3 armored trucks (white scout cars or halftracks), 3 jeeps, 1 car, 2 15c.w.t trucks
c. Weapons – 2 LMG, 1 PIAT, 6 Browning, 2 37mm
2) HQ Squadron
a. Squadron HQ
i. Men – 2 BO 6 IOR
ii. Vehicles – 1 car, 1 15c.w.t trucks
iii. Weapons –
b. Intercommunication troop
i. Men – 1 BO 20 IOR
ii. Vehicles – 3 jeeps, 6 scout cars (probably dingos as seen in photos)
iii. Weapons – 6 LMG
c. Support troop
i. Men – 1 BO 1 VCO 38 IOR
ii. Vehicles – 8 armored cars – heavy
iii. Weapons – 6 Browning, 8 75mm
d. Mortar troop
i. Men – 1 VCO 33 IOR
ii. Vehicles – 6 carriers (there is a typo in one of the listings regarding the number of carriers, but other sources confirm the number 6)
iii. Weapons – 1 LMG, 6 Mortar 3in
e. Administration troop
i. Men – 1 BO 4VCO 48 IOR
ii. Vehicles – 2 15c.w.t trucks, 1 water truck, 10 3-ton lorries, 1 armored recovery truck
iii. Weapons – 3 LMG
3) Squadrons (x3)
a. Squadron HQ Administration
i. Men – 1 VCO 29 IOR
ii. Vehicles – 3 15c.w.t trucks, 1 water truck, 3 3-ton lorries, 1 armored recovery truck
iii. Weapons – 2 LMG, 1 PIAT
b. Squadron HQ fighting
i. Men – 3 BO 12 IOR
ii. Vehicles – 2 armored cars, 2 jeeps
iii. Weapons – 2 LMG, 6 Browning, 2 37mm
c. Armored car troop
i. Men – 1 VCO 15 IOR
ii. Vehicles – 4 armored cars
iii. Weapons -12 Browning, 4 37mm
d. Carrier troops (x2)
i. Men – 1 VCO 11 IOR
ii. Vehicles – 4 carriers universal
iii. Weapons – 4 LMG, 2 PIAT
e. Jeep troop
i. Men – 1 VCO 11 IOR
ii. Vehicles – 6 jeeps
iii. Weapons – 3 LMG
f. Rifle troop
i. Men – 1 BO 1 VCO 34 IOR
ii. Vehicles – 4 armored trucks (white scout cars or halftracks), 1 carrier universal
iii. Weapons – 5 LMG, 2 mortar 2in, 2 PIAT

A few good sources include (most of these are not widely available):

Sworn to Die (Lt Col Skinner) [Detailed coverage of Skinner's Horse in the Italian theater]

6th Duke of Connaught's Own Lancers (General Indar Jit Rikhye) [Significant Italy coverage]

The Last of the Bengal Lancers (F. Ingall) [only has brief portions on Italy]

King George V.'s Own Central India Horse : the story (continued) of a local corps, being volume II. of the regimental history (A.A. Filose)[most specific Italy TOE, plus significant other Italy coverage]

The Indian armour: history of the Indian Armoured Corps (Gurcharn Singh Sandhu)[second volume on the general history of the IAC -- some summary TOEs and good info, but where it disagrees with individual histories, it is likely erroneous]

Indian Armed Forces in WWII – Campaign in Italy (Historical Section, Edited by B. Prasad) [Good info on overall force deployment – i.e. what infantry and support units interacted with Recce]

-Sean"

Then this:

"I don't think we need to make the list overly limited and cumbersome by restricting things to regiment specific options. Most lists have the ability to be fielded in a slightly ahistorical format. And even some options that seem ahistorical might not actually be. For example, though 6DCO did not have official jeep troops in each squadron, there are plenty of instances I have read of a SQD. HQ or RHQ jeeps being sent ahead, which would be adequately modeled by deploying a jeep troop.

Here are my thoughts/proposals regarding the list:

First, I'm excited they finally put out a list. I sent in a fan list many moons ago. I am glad that there are not any fundamental errors, only excluded options. I don't think many changes are needed.

With regard to the exclusion of greyhounds. I am ambivalent. Only one regiment (6DCO) had them from October of '44 on. They would make a cool-mixed unit, but it would add significant complication to the lists to allow the full squadron. A way to get close--without too much messing with the list--would be to say that the carrier troops could be replaced by a 3 car greyhound troop. This would allow someone to field a short 6DCO squadron by fielding three of 6DCO's four troops (i.e. EITHER 2x3 greyhounds and 4 humbers OR 3 greyhounds, 4 humbers and 4 carriers).

With regard to the heavy troop (or "gun battery" as 6DCO sources named it), I'd love to have it--though the full 8 car/gun unit* might be a little too much--possibly just a half size unit. I.e. 2 or 4 cars of AEC II or M3 75mm GMC or possibly staghounds**

With regard to the mortar troop, just a normal 2/4/6 unit of mortars in mortar carriers should work (with a note that these can be modelled as IPC's at the player's discretion with no change in rules)

I think the above would make a more accurate list without creating a ridiculously complicated list.

Sean

*I know that Mark Davies post above suggests they were units of 6 cars . . . but every source I have read says 8 cars. For instance I am looking at page 109 of Maj. Gen. Rikhye's text on the 6DCO and it expressly states that the "Gun Battery was organized in two troops, each of two sections of two guns each, mounted in an armored half-track vehicle" and the TOE I posted above from the primary text on the CIH expressly states "8 armored cars – heavy"

**While I am absolutely certain of the AEC II's in Skinner's horse and the 75 GMC's in 6DCO, I have never been able confirm whether CIH received Staghounds or not prior to departing Italy.

Also though Davies suggests "DCO Lancers and Skinner's Horse were very short of Humber Armoured Cars" – I think he may slightly overstate the case. While I have read a number of accounts of 6DCO abandoning knocked-out AC's and carriers, most photos show troops of 3-4 humbers or carriers. Additionally when the greyhounds arrived the humber patrols were at full strength."

Fantastic work! That's the most comprehensive research I've ever seen on the subject.

I'll have to find Filose's and Skinner's books, as those were the ones I never got my hands on (Mark Hayes found the others in the USN historical library, where he worked).

My apologies, as I was working from memory, but I agree – the Heavy/Gun Troops should be eight vehicles, not six.

So Skinner's didn't have Greyhounds? Strange, as I've noted that they did. Typically for my notes, there is no source (possibly Sandhu?). I've got the note regarding 6DCO retaining one troop of 4x Humbers and 2x Troops of 3x Greyhounds, but for some reason I have the same thing listed for Skinner's.

Re Jeep troops: fair enough. There are plenty of examples from NW Europe as well of officers conducting 'light' recce in their personal Jeep or a scout car borrowed from the Liaison Troop.

I agree entirely with your suggested list amendments. It seems odd that Corps support should be included, but not Regt support.

Skeptic,

British personnel in Indian regiments were limited to just the King's Commissioned Officers (KCOs) – i.e. the executive command roles. However, a process of 'Indianisation' had begun in the 1930s, where increasing numbers of KCOs were ethnically Indian or Gurkha. This even included the COs of one or two units at the start of WW2 – a lot more by 1945.

There was also a 'mirror' command structure in all Indian Army regiments formed by the Viceroy's Commissioned Officers (VCOs or 'Subedars' – 'Rissaldars' in cavalry regiments). Each KCO would have a VCO assigned to act as a liaison and advisor. VCOs essentially held officer rank (and in emergencies would lead platoons and companies), but formed a third rank tier in between KCOs and Indian NCOs.

However, some regiments of the Indian States Forces (ISF – those regiments formed by the independent and semi-independent Indian principalities affiliated to the Raj), being raised privately and independently of the Indian Army proper, had no British officers at all and often didn't bother with Subedars/Rissaldars. The officers in these regiments were commissioned by the relevant prince/maharajah who owned the regiment, though were given emergency acting King's Commissions for the duration of the war.

African regiments by contrast had many more British personnel than their Indian equivalents. Unlike Indian Army regiments, the African regiments were part of the British Army proper. British non-commissioned personnel often filled HQ and technical roles and there would often be the odd British NCO supporting British platoon and/or company commanders. African KCOs were very few and far between – 81 West African Division went to war with only one African KCO. There was no equivalent of the VCO system in African regiments.

Thanks again, RMD, and thanks, too, zo x 4!

Thanks RMD.

I recall Filose's book as being better in terms of specific equipment, but its been a while since I looked at either. Both are available on inter-library loan from universities (the CIH text I read came from University of Alabama IIRC). I thought about buying a personal copy of the CIH text, but the only ones available are $150 USD+

At home, I only have access now to the Rikhye text and the relevant pages of the Bengal Lancers text. So I cannot be certain whether Sworn to Die said anything about greyhounds, but I don't recall it and I don't have anything in my notes about it. Also a search of the google books version of Sworn to Die (which you can search, but not read) does not show any hits for greyhound or m8. But then again,I recall it as being pretty short on specific equipment details. For example there is only one hit for humber in the search: link

Both Sworn to Die and the Sandhu text are available at my local university library, so I'll hop over this weekend and double check. Even if those sources don't confirm refitting, Skinner's horse was deployed in Italy through April 45 though, so it is not outside the realm of possibility that they were refitted like 6DCO.

Isn't it amazing how these books are available in the US library system, but not the British?! My much-missed late friend Mark Hayes was constantly chasing books in the US and photocopying the juicy bits for me.

Incidentally, odd that the MGs are listed as 'Brownings' instead of 'Besas'. Might the 'Humbers' actually therefore be Foxes, as with the Burma regiments? I don't recall ever seeing a photo of an Indian Fox or Humber (apart from the one on the cover of the FoW supplement, that is!).

Here's a photo for Leadgend:

Fox AC:
link

RMD, I too am stunned sometimes how easy it is for me in Texas-of all places-to get these books and how difficult it is for gamers/researchers in UK or the commonwealth.

I am pretty certain all threee units had Humber IV's and not Foxes.

Rikhye, who was a member of 6DCO in Italy states (on p.85):

"During the concentration [in preparation for Sangro] each lancer squadron was issues with one troop of Humber IV Armored Cars, equipped with 37-mm guns. Initially the gunners faced some problems with the new equipment, as only a few of the Non-commissioned Officers were familiar with it."

Rikhye also includes a plate I haven't seen anywhere else of 6DCO Humber's after crossing the Moro:

I went and looked again at (and took select images from) the book by Skinner (Sworn to Die) last night. It is more thorough and specific than I remembered and it too expressly references the Humber and the 37-mm guns. For example Skinner's was equipped with its armoured cars in the desert before going to Italy and Skinner mentions difficulties with the 37-mm guns (on pp. 173-74):

"We also did our first field firing with the new armoured car guns during these marches. The armoured cars either started ahead of the Regiment and fired in some suitable desert area on the march, or stayed back and fired before leaving one camp, catching up with the Regiment before reaching the next. At Haifa we drew equipment, and also called in local Ordnance experts to repair the 37 mm guns of the armoured cars, several of which had gone out of order during the field firing."

After looking through Sworn to Die, I saw no suggestion of re-equipping with Greyhounds or any other armored car. You may have concluded that they had them from Sandhu's general statement that Skinner's Horse "had the same organization and equipment as the 6th Lancers except that it had a heavy armoured car troop (AEC)." I think he meant that Skinner's had the same initial setup (especially given that—as detailed below—Skinner's no longer had AEC's at the point 6DCO began equipping greyhounds)
.
Skinner does however discuss trading out Skinner's Horse's AEC IIs for 75mm GMCs from CIH (on p. 197):

"During this period [after the Gothic line] we were ordered to draw eight self-propelled 75 mm guns* from the Central India Horse, who were preparing to go to Greece. We handed in our heavy armored cars, which had never been much use to us and were usually referred to as out 'mobile road blocks', and organized a 75 mm gun troop."

This reference plus the specific 75mm reference in the CIH TOE strongly suggests that CIH only had 75 MM GMC's. The Sandhu book in one place (pp. 50-51) after summarizing the CIH TOE that includes 75mm "Heavy Armoured Cars" suggests that the CIH had "Staghounds (75mm) as armoured cars", but the only 75mm staghounds produced did not make it into service before CIH left Italy in October of 1944. So that is an error—likely the editor went looking for 75mm armored cars that served as some point in the Indian army and erroneously chose the Staghound. In a later portion of the Sandhu book it instead states that CIH had "AEC Matador heavy armored cars (6pdr gun)."** This is less clearly wrong, but it does not match up with the CIH book TOE's insistence on 75mm's and Skinner's statement that the CIH transferred their 75mm GMCs to Skinner's Horse. There is the outside chance that CIH had AEC III's, but that would not explain the clear reference to the transfer of 75mm GMC's to Skinner's Horse at the time CIH left Italy.

In any event it seems that the most supportable route would be to allow only 75mm GMC's and AEC II's as options for the heavy troop should.

*These are clearly 75mm GMCs like those used in standard British Armoured Car units because earlier in the text (on p. 179), Skinner states that 12 Royal Lancers had "a battery of eight self-propelled guns. We were to have these later, and appreciate their value."

**Sandhu also interestingly suggests the AECs had "more mobility" than the 75mm…which is funny given Skinner's above complaint about their poor mobility.

Great stuff once again.

Sorry mate, by 'Foxes' I was thinking of the Fox Mk II with the 37mm gun (as used in Burma but often described there as 'Humbers'), rather than the earlier Fox Mk I with .50 cal armament.

Your interpretation re the Staghound issue makes far more sense now. Mark Hayes had suggested that Sandhu meant Staghound III, but as you say that was not possible. We therefore thought that he must have meant the Staghound II, equipped with the 3-inch CS Howitzer, which was in service in Italy at the time. However, your explanation of Sandhu's mistake re '75mm cars' makes far more sense.

I suppose the mobility issue depends on one's point of view – on roads a wheeled armoured car is going to have more mobility, but off-road, the halftrack is going to have the edge.

Which wat did the 3" mortars face in the India Pattern Carriers? Forward or rearwards?

I would have assumed 3" mortars would be carried in knocked down form for use dismounted like the universal carrier version.

The very few photos I've seen show them firing forward.

Unlike the Universal 3-inch Mortar Carrier, they were mounted ready to fire inside the Wheeled Carrier, though could undoubtedly be dismounted as required.