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"60mm x 30mm de facto standard in 6mm basing" Topic


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KTravlos25 Apr 2014 7:55 p.m. PST

I am glad for that then :p

Twilight Samurai25 Apr 2014 9:20 p.m. PST

Madness or sport, I know not.

Personal logo Whirlwind Supporting Member of TMP25 Apr 2014 10:33 p.m. PST

As too their popularity as a base size, I have always had the impression that it was simply a case that if you used Polemos rules you really did not have a choice. I am not sure that this gives. 60x30 any sort of qualification as some kind of standard base.

Definitely not regarding choice in Polemos, you certainly don't have to. IIRC the designer of Polemos:SPQR and Polemos:ECW (David Heading) uses 40mm x 20mm bases; he says he finds painting a bit of a chore and prefers to use fewer figures on a smaller base, certainly for the ancients at any rate (it is somewhere on his blog: ancientrules.blogspot.co.uk ). I think that where it is a natural beginning is that the Baccus Army packs (apart from for ancients) are normally worked out on the basis of 24 figs inc. comd for an infantry unit, which fits just right on a 60mm x 30mm base.

Personally I do use the 60mm x 30mm bases for my 6mm troops, including for games of Polemos Napoleonics, and here are a couple of AARs, for those who mentioned not seeing one ever:

link

link

I too use 30mm x 30mm for my non-Baccus WW2 stuff.

Regards

Bandit25 Apr 2014 10:49 p.m. PST

I'm trying to figure out how the purpose of this thread was not to start an argument.

Glenn you keep bringing up how this base size is the base size to end all base sizes for 6mm, you bring it up in lots of threads, now it has its own thread and it is "I think it is" vs "I think it isn't" where is this going? What is the point here? You've made it clear that you are going to strongly defend your view that this particular 6mm basing system is *the* basing system, describing it as the "most popular". From this I have concluded you're not going to change your position so… if you aren't willing to consider an alternative and if you aren't trying to start an argument what purpose does this thread serve?


Cheers,

The Bandit

kmahony11125 Apr 2014 11:17 p.m. PST

I would have thought if there was any defacto "standard", then it would be 3x3 inch. It was used by VnB and Grand Armee years before Polemos came out.

As for only seeing 60x30mm bases I guess that would be true for you if all your mates used the same basing and you searched ebay in your country and not internationally.

It is interesting that baccus sell that many bases a year though. I like Baccus a lot and big bases for 6mm but I think 30mm depth is too much for some systems.

Cheers
Kieran

Glenn Pearce26 Apr 2014 12:10 p.m. PST

Hello CATenWolde!

I was taught that when you insult someone that you did not mean too, then you apologize.

Your basing scale is of course your own and is in no way attached to the 60x30 base.

Glenn Pearce26 Apr 2014 12:15 p.m. PST

Hello Kmfisher!

Your not alone, many have changed over to 60x30 for those same reasons.

Best regards,

Glenn

Glenn Pearce26 Apr 2014 12:22 p.m. PST

Hello I Drink Your Milkshake!

Thanks for your input to the thread.

As for your rant. I think you really need to check yourself on a regular basis and then perhaps you will be able to get back on topic, BRO.

Best regards,

Glenn

Glenn Pearce26 Apr 2014 12:27 p.m. PST

Hello John the OFM!

"Well put, Mister Milkshake"

I can only assume that my desire to try and figure out your position does not meet with your approval. If so, I apologize and I will not trouble you any further on this subject.

Best regards,

Glenn

Glenn Pearce26 Apr 2014 12:36 p.m. PST

Hello Mike!

If you look at the threads the topics are different. If you look at the other threads you will also see that bases are only discussed by a couple of people.

I've never asked this question before.

I'm asking a much wider audience what their observations are. That's my question. This is a huge difference from what has gone on before.

If they seem the same to you, then I'm sorry, I can't change that.

Best regards,

Glenn

CATenWolde26 Apr 2014 12:39 p.m. PST

Glenn – that's okay, there's no need to apologize. As you say, you didn't realize that you may have been insulting me.

Glenn Pearce26 Apr 2014 12:58 p.m. PST

Hello 1815 Guy!

Good input, but remember I'm only really talking about 6mm Napoleonic's with a spill over into other H&M. There are also a fair number of GA & V&B players that use the 60mm x 60mm and it's sister base the 60x30.

I'm sure there are a lot more people not playing Polemos then are playing. The problem though is the vast sea of other rules that use different base sizes. That's why most of them have no chance of ever being more popular.

Yes, your right I could very well be making a classic error, but the numbers coming out of Baccus and from Chortle certainly don't seem to support that.

I'm not talking about WW2, so I think we can discard the 30x30 base, although it is also used in Polemos.

No Polemos is not an underground rule set. It always appears in the top 10 when the subject of 6mm Napoleonic rules come up.

Best regards,

Glenn

Glenn Pearce26 Apr 2014 1:12 p.m. PST

Hello Bandit!

I have no idea why you would think that I want to start an argument.

The purpose of the thread is to solicit input from as wide an audience as is possible, to see what they think about my conclusions. So far most don't agree which does not surprise me. Still I'm interested in seeing what people think about it.

Glenn Pearce26 Apr 2014 1:15 p.m. PST

Hello CATenWolde!

Ok, now that's funny, especially since I don't recall saying that.

Glenn Pearce26 Apr 2014 1:26 p.m. PST

Hello kmahony111!

Yes the GA/V&B 3" basing may very well have been the first de facto standard. Once Polemos came out I noticed a lot of players seemed to start using the 60x60 base. Then the 60x30 started to get traction when people realized that they could play all three rule sets with this base.

Today this base is easily used with a lot of rules which seems to have given it even more mileage.

Best regards,

Glenn

1815Guy26 Apr 2014 1:42 p.m. PST

Great use of irony there, Glen Pearce. Esp the bit about Polemos being a top ten ruleset.

Btw, your thread title is very clear and specific. Nowhere do you limit your assertion to Napoleonic period. In fact you have posted to six boards.

Is it me, now, or is this thread getting really pointless and Boring?

Life is too short for this, even in 6mm scale.

Glenn Pearce26 Apr 2014 1:46 p.m. PST

"primarily in Napoleonic's"

1815Guy27 Apr 2014 6:02 a.m. PST

Eats shoots and leaves

John the OFM27 Apr 2014 6:17 a.m. PST

"primarily in Napoleonic's"

Then why did you crosspost to SYW, AWI, ACW and 18th Century?

Glenn Pearce27 Apr 2014 8:53 a.m. PST

To see if anybody there had noticed as this base is also used for these periods in 6mm.

Personal logo War Artisan Sponsoring Member of TMP27 Apr 2014 11:41 a.m. PST

Reasoning with the residents of Plato's Cave is an exercise in futility.

SJDonovan27 Apr 2014 2:25 p.m. PST

It's at times like this I miss Gazzola.

Charlie 1227 Apr 2014 3:53 p.m. PST

Well put, War Artisan….

Glenn Pearce27 Apr 2014 5:56 p.m. PST

Curly, Larry & Moe?

KTravlos27 Apr 2014 6:09 p.m. PST

Oh please just all walk away from it :p

Glenn Pearce27 Apr 2014 7:01 p.m. PST

Yes please do

Bandit27 Apr 2014 7:46 p.m. PST

Oh please just all walk away from it :p

Yes please do

Is that the equivalent of, "No I'm not, you are!"?

Jeff,

Reasoning with the residents of Plato's Cave is an exercise in futility.

Gotta be careful doing it or they might revolt and kill ya for trying.

Cheers,

The Bandit

Ben Waterhouse28 Apr 2014 4:23 a.m. PST

Still No…

Dexter Ward28 Apr 2014 8:50 a.m. PST

60x30mm bases for 6mm figures are illegal in many US states.

Zaporozhian07 May 2014 11:51 a.m. PST

Hi Everyone!

New to Wargaming; new to Napoleonics. Was given a bag of 6mm British and French Napoleonics (Heroics?) and was looking for ideas on how to base and play them and came across this forum.

Is this really what Wargaming is about… arguing about stuff that doesn't matter?

I can understand discussions about things like interpretations of rules, or the pros and cons of a particular rule set or even base size.

But who cares about which manufacturer sells the most bases of a particular size? Unless they're going to give me a percentage of the profits, I certainly don't.

Glenn Pearce07 May 2014 12:11 p.m. PST

Hello Zaporozhian!

No, sadly some people just like to stir it up no matter what the subject is.

You should first try to find people in your area if possible to see what rules they are playing. The rules will determine what basing options you have. Today most rules will let you base in whatever style you want, but some are restrictive and might require some changes to accommodate another style.

Failing that I'm afraid you will have to search out your own rules to find a style that you think you might like to try. Do you have any ideas on what kind of game you might be looking for?

Best regards,

Glenn

Last Hussar07 May 2014 12:16 p.m. PST

Zaporozhian

Entering Wargaming by the Napoleonic boards of TMP is the equivalent to a space alien landing in Berlin in 1941 and being asked to discuss humanity.

Adam name not long enough07 May 2014 1:48 p.m. PST

Last Hussar,

I think that is a little unfair to Berliners (and doughnuts)…

Bandit07 May 2014 2:26 p.m. PST

Berchtesgaden would make more sense than Berlin if we're talking about places in WW2 Germany where no one would have a clue about human rights.

Cheers,

The Bandit

Shanhoplite07 May 2014 5:10 p.m. PST

There is no defacto basing in any scale. Ancients came the closest, as was pointed out earlier in this thread.

The best way to get into Napoleonic's is to settle with a good set of rules that your club wants to go with. If this is a solo project then you have a LOT of leeway on what you want to do, in terms of figure scale, unit scale, rules used, house rules, base sizes, and period played.

Sometimes it is best to be independent minded as well. For example I am painting up some Perry plastic 28mm AWI Redcoats atm. From a TMP post I found a gentleman who did these exact figures who used an odd basing--40mm frontage by 50mm depth. Someone asked him about it, and his reply was sage. He was keeping a multiple game consistent frontage (20mm per figure, 2 figures wide), but needed the extra depth to protect the charging bayonets on the models.

So now I am going have figures based differently than (almost) everyone else playing AWI, yet it will be just fine, and my figures will also be safer to handle. Win!

I don't understand how anyone can argue that a given base size is "defacto" standard in this hobby. Right now Flames of War bases are extremely prevalent for 15mm WWII gaming, yet I have played many game systems that don't use bases that size, and as the popularity of the system waxes and wanes, so too does the "defacto" standard.

Far better to find a rules set covering the period that you like, that you really like, then build your miniature forces around that. If it all goes squirrely you can always re-base the figures if really needed, but modern game systems are being written to avoid that being a necessity. This is especially true given the growing size of the models. My 28mm Ancients literally do not fit on the old WRG basing standard, which is what we were talking about as the "almost" standard basing system. Today it isn't even possible!

Base for your game and don't worry about it.


Shan

Zaporozhian08 May 2014 8:43 a.m. PST

From looking at rule reviews and comments and seeing the variations people use, I agree with Shanhoplite + others: There is no defacto basing in any scale for any period.

So I'll just suit myself.

It'll have to be a solo project for now, but it seems that if I use a smaller basing system I can always combine bases or put them on a thin card to suit rules using larger bases. So that's the way I'll probably go.

Son of William Pitt the Eldar08 May 2014 9:31 a.m. PST

My "de facto" AWI basing standard was derived much like shanhoplite's. I wanted to protect bayonets and prevent the guys on the flanks from rubbing elbows. Thus they are based with 3 figures on a 2" x 1" base.
Since I cut my own from basswood I end up with no waste. grin
I also paint both sides.
I originally used 1776 basing which was barely adequate for Hinchliffe figures. Figures have grown since then.

Glenn Pearce08 May 2014 10:16 a.m. PST

Hello Shan!

Excellent post, and it seems that the vast majority agree with you. In fact a few years ago so would I. I do note however, that your examples pertain to 15 and 28mm. If your not really following what's going on in 6mm then your not likely to see what I'm seeing.

The 6mm scene was just like the others scales. Everybody was using different rules and basing and a lot still are. For over 30 years I rarely saw anybody using the same basing in 6mm. Now that seems to have changed. There are probably about a half dozen different size of basing that are now being used more commonly in 6mm horse and muskets periods. My observations indicate that of those six the 60x30 seems to be the one most favored for a number of reasons.

The numbers I got from just Baccus and Chortle are staggering. Their numbers are being pumped into our hobby every year. Baccus is not the only retailer for this base and Chortle is not the only 6mm painter. The base although perhaps spawned by one rule system, it can and is being used for others. Will it still wane one day, maybe, but there is no evidence of that. In fact the evidence suggests the exact opposite.

Anyway, thanks for your input.

Best regards,

Glenn

Shanhoplite08 May 2014 1:23 p.m. PST

Actually I game in everything. And the examples are just that….examples.

I would strongly suggest taking anyone arguing that there is a standard of any type in the hobby, even a transient one, with a grain of salt.


Shan

Sparta08 May 2014 1:26 p.m. PST

We have a huge collection of 6 mm. Our rules us 25x10 mm bases, with multiple bases in a unit, allowing us to represent different battallion formations.

I absolutely fail to see the argument that 6mm should somehow lend themselves to specific basic schemes that other scales does not. I for one have never found single stand batallions appealing, but fortunately other opinion may differ.

Bandit08 May 2014 1:51 p.m. PST

Glenn,

On 25 Apr 2014 you posted this topic stating that you believe there is a de facto standard for 6mm basing and it is the one that you commonly post endorsing.

Two weeks later you've posted that all other contrary opinions on this thread aside you still believe that there is a de facto standard for 6mm basing and that it is the one you commonly post endorsing…

I just went through this thread post by post and found the following:

2 people (including you) posted saying you felt this was a standard, i.e. 1 other person agreed with you
2 other people said they use that size base but made no comment on it being a standard

Deleted by Moderator

Cheers,

The Bandit

Sparker09 May 2014 12:04 a.m. PST

Hi Glenn,

Interesting post. Deleted by Moderator

For my part, and I must emphasise that I know very little about 6mm horse and musketry, I think the advent of Sam Mustafa's 'Blucher' rules may affect the popularity of your beloved 60x30s.

I suggest this for two reasons:

Blucher appears to be based on the Brigade as the lowest single base unit, rather than the Battalion of Foot/Regiment of Horse;

and further more I understand that Sam may be producing playing cards to designate such units, either for these cards to be used wholly to represent each army, or, more likely to be popular, a halfway house as newcomers to the genre and scale, attracted by the success of Sam's golden touch with rules, will enter the period.

Now whilst Sam's rules are always designed to be catholic in the use of existing based armies, so that many would be able to use 2 of their 6x30s, one behind t'other, many more newcomers might be tempted to go straight to the playing card size base for their brigade, as they slowly build up their armies alongside their playing card brethren…

Just a theory, but certainly something most of my mob are discussing…

Brownbear09 May 2014 2:07 a.m. PST

Amen to this post ???

Glenn Pearce09 May 2014 7:09 a.m. PST

Hello Sparta!

Very interesting. Before changing over to 60x30 we also used small bases of 7/8" x 5/8" for probably some 25-30 years. But our group were just not players. We tried to study everything we did in an effort to improve our games.

One of things that was a constant problem was the idea of changing formations and the logistics of moving all the little bases. Most wargamers want to move every unit every turn. We always play fairly big games with multiple players so the time eaten up by each player every turn while he weights his options for every unit is huge. There was also the problem of players being caught in the wrong formation which came up very often as well. There is also what I call the "square dance" another problem of cavalry vs. infantry. Once we made the switch to single base units we almost doubled our turns in the same amount of time and all the formation problems vanished.

Anyway, just my ramble. Your group is obviously very happy with your basing and that's all that matters.

Best regards,

Glenn

Glenn Pearce09 May 2014 7:35 a.m. PST

Bandit,

There is only one point to this thread and that has already been explained to you.

KTravlos09 May 2014 7:52 a.m. PST

I see the fun never ends in this, our little village

Sparta09 May 2014 9:12 a.m. PST

Hi Glenn. We often use movement bases (magnetic) under tthe bases.

i do not understand whar you mean by players being caught in the wrong formation – is that not the whole purpose of a tactical game – to turn a flank or to force the opponenet into an problematic situation?

Glenn Pearce09 May 2014 10:53 a.m. PST

Hello Sparta!

Yes we used magnetic bases for a few years and later moved to movement trays and back to free form. It seemed that we could never satisfy everyone. Oddly enough the majority did like free form the best and so did I. Despite the fact free form took up the most time there was just something about moving all those little blocks that made you feel good.

Yes indeed that is certainly critical in all games. The major problem was the extra points one would get or lose for not being in the best formation for the tactical situation at hand. We often have new or part time members and all the rules are not always perfectly clear to them. The most common words spoken at our games were "if I had known he could do that then I would not have been in that formation". On the surface perhaps not so bad, but all the units are trying to act together so even one unit can effect the actual location and formation of a dozen others. So even trying to back track the move presented another series of problems.

Everyone is so much happier now that were no longer trying to micro manage a big battle. And were still turning flanks and given the opposition lots of problems. The only difference is their all at a higher level.

Best regards,

Glenn

Glenn Pearce09 May 2014 11:32 a.m. PST

Hello Sparker!

Another fabulous post. You managed to hit every nail on the head again. And thanks for your kind words.

You are so right, let me explain.

As far as I can figure it out V&B first attracted a number of 6mm players who simply did the normal thing, put more 6mm figures on a base intended for larger figures. They then realized that they could play the same game with smaller bases.

Then along came Sam with GA and the same thing happened.

Baccus appeared next with Polemos that matches the way they produce and sell their figures. They also picked a base size that worked perfectly with V&B, GA and a number of other rule systems. Some rules might require a few simple amendments, but the three main systems were covered seamlessly.

Sam knows he has a big following and that a lot of them are based for GA, which is a brigade game. I'm sure the basing for Blucher will be compatible.

Baccus sells two bases to match Polemos the 60x60 which is intended for brigade games and my choice the 60x30. As you point out you simply put two 60x30 back to back and you have your 60x60. I chose the 60x30 for three basic reasons. One, the units on your base are not forever locked together, i.e. the 6th and 7th Hussars. Two, you can change the shape of your brigade and possibly the dynamics of the game. Three, you can play lower tactical games using battalions or regiments.

Please pass this onto your mob.

Best regards,

Glenn

Personal logo Whirlwind Supporting Member of TMP09 May 2014 12:15 p.m. PST

I absolutely fail to see the argument that 6mm should somehow lend themselves to specific basic schemes that other scales does not. I for one have never found single stand battalions appealing, but fortunately other opinion may differ.

Only in that the smaller the base the more fiddly and time-consuming the play, but with greater individuation. Using 6mm figures on a 20mm bases is 'roughly' equivalent to playing a game with single-based 28/30mm figures.

Regards

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