"To many figs looking around ?" Topic

This has bothered me for some time and the pic of the OG Prussians advancing got me going again . Do they realize that if everyone was looking around like that the formation whould soon fall apart . The various styles of neck stocks ect. made in almost impossible to turn your head during the days of linear tactics for a reason . There was no looking around or talking buy the common soldier unless you wanted a cane to the back of your head . If the designers would pick up a book or have had been in large formations before most the the wonderfuly sculptured enlisted figures that are out there would be looking for the most part straight ahead.

In some way that's why I do love my old Minifig's. as Regulars. A lot of my Landwehr is in the mixed poses figures.

I had a similar problem with some Freikorps Hellenistic phalangites. generally very good models especially for their age, some were, inexplicably looking to the side. This is not a problem if the pikes are in the "charge" position. If they are "stood" anyone looking to the right looks like they are looking straight into the pike. Fortunately, you can at least bend the head slightly with some effort to make them look better. Or, you can ensure that any men with pikes "stood" will be the ones looking straight ahead.

What a drill manual has to say and what human nature is, are two different things. I know this argument, as I have heard several times from the people that I game with doing SYW. But, Humanity fears death and is horrified by human carnage. We are going to "turn away" from that which frightens us.

Also, I have trouble with believing that officers, which would have come from the upper class, would have been more immune to human carnage than the average enlistee from the lower classes of society. I can see the upper class bullying the lower class when their life is not in danger, but when it is a choice of bullying someone or saving their own life, I believe they would chose the later.

Plus, if the officers has the power to keep men moving forward, because they feared the cane more than the mini ball, then would there have ever been a route during the SYW? Which, I find interesting having played KK that after so many turns you check for causalities and on a simple die roll one whole side could decide its time to leave the field. Where are those officers now with their canes to the back of the head?

I have OG SYW Prussians doing the same thing. I like it, for variety, but if I didn't, yeah, it's pretty easy to twist the heads a bit to suit. Tricornes are like snappy wingnuts!

Hi, Russ (?). So your history is from KK? (he-he) I suspect you are talking about the Army "morale" check. If so, the retrograde is supposed to have been ordered by the Commanding General- his perception of the condition of his army ---and makes for a great excuse to end a game.

The role of the officers was not to fight, but to lead and maintain control over the men- keep them focused upon the tasks at hand and inspire them to fight. Those cravats physically prevented them from looking all around and actually helped the officer's do their jobs by helping to remove distractions from the men's concentration. When based, it gives the appearance that there are a lot of conversations going on in the ranks…./>)

In any case, the leather neck stock issue was very real. It kept the men from looking all around and focused on what he should be doing. This is the only criticism I have of Old Glory otherwise excellent sculpts. But then, most gamers really don't seem to care- it fill the rank and file and gives a sort of ACW "look" to them. This is fine if that is the look you are after or if a unit is in route march. then it can be quite effective!

Maybe you might reconsider this post if/when you decide to update the range at a later time? Until then, keep up the great work!

v/r
Tom

I much prefer the "Hey, Steve!" poses to dead or wounded. I hate having to pay for dead and wounded figures as part of the 6 or 8 or 12 or 30 in a pack.

One of the local players calls that the "Squirrel!" head-turn.

It doesn't bother me, I like the variety, as long as it's not carried to extremes (like looking back over the shoulder in a "Stop stepping on my heel!" fashion).

Tom, Miniatureships is not Russ.

And, In terms of KK, the individuals that I game with are well read on the SYW and KK is their choice of game. Thus, to them it must reflect what they understand of the history of the period.

Still regardless of the leather neck piece, you are stating that the upper class produces individual men that have more strength of character than those of the lower class. The upper class are men who fear not death, nor cannon balls, nor mini balls. They are not shocked nor horrified at human bodies that torn apart in front of them, nor blood and remains splattered across their face!

By human nature we are individuals that follow the crowd and do what they are doing, and I believe that even applies to combat.

One other note, I have noticed that several new ranges that have come on the market are now being posed and styled like the original Old Glory figures, including the "hey Steve!" look on the officers, with turn heads and waving hands, and yet not one criticism.

The "hey Steve" look is good on officers. More like a "hey Steve, you still back there?"

I always enjoyed the scene in the 1939 classic, "The Four Feathers." Two British soldiers in the firing line, watching the onrushing horde of Mahdist irregular cavalry -- one says he cannot bear to watch; his mate says "look away, I'll tell you when it's time to look up and fire."

link

"They are not shocked nor horrified at human bodies that torn apart in front of them, nor blood and remains splattered across their face!"

I don't know about soldiers but I've certainly seen plenty of surgeons who don't even flinch when "blood and other remains splatter across their face." I've seen it happen plenty of times.

Hi, MiniatureShips. Sorry.

"And, In terms of KK, the individuals that I game with are well read on the SYW and KK is their choice of game. Thus, to them it must reflect what they understand of the history of the period."

It's been my favorite set of rules for SYW for decades. But still, it is not perfect- it's very playable and has given me countless hours of fun as a game.

"Still regardless of the leather neck piece, you are stating that the upper class produces individual men that have more strength of character than those of the lower class"

Yes, Thatpretty much sums up what I have read in Duffy's books and Nosworthy, Frederick the Great's writings, du Picq, etc.

"The upper class are men who fear not death, nor cannon balls, nor mini balls. They are not shocked nor horrified at human bodies that torn apart in front of them, nor blood and remains splattered across their face!"

Yes, of course they are! This all serves to distract THEM from their tasks. This is why units degenerate as the officers have lost control of the unit being a units but a collection of individuals. training and experience of the men and the leaders and how long they have been as a unit is FAR more applicable factors than how many men become casualties. The "hey Steve" look depicts what a unit about to run must have looked like, to me.

But Don't get me wrong, I own a LOT of them in my collections, but now think they no longer reflect what my mind's image wishes to depict as steadfast troops.

"One other note, I have noticed that several new ranges that have come on the market are now being posed and styled like the original Old Glory figures, including the "hey Steve!" look on the officers, with turn heads and waving hands, and yet not one criticism."

Not to call you out, but this does not match what I am seeing. maybe I am missing those manufacturers? Who? The ones I am seeing here in Germany are mostly march attack poses, with heads looking forward: (HAT in 25mm, Black Hussar in 28mm, Schilling in 20mm, and various combat poses in 10mm from Pendragon, Haven't seen any "hey Steve" poses from the Perry's, but you can sure make them if you want to.

I really like the OGM 10mm WSS and SYW because they "Look" like a unit that more matches my minds eye.

Am really sorry bout calling you Russ. I know he sometimes posts but mistook you for him. This is not a deal breaker with me, as I still buy other lines, scales and periods from OGM, but no longer 25mm SYW Infantry. Hey, it's a LITTLE criticism! Times do change, y'know.

Best
Tom

Anent the attitude of officers, there is a time honoured saying in the Foot Guards, still born out to some extent by some of the casualties taken in the 'Stan', that the NCO's showed the regiment how to fight, and the officers showed it how to die.

Pictor's, I see a surgeon a lot differently then I see an officer who is appointed that position out of class distinction rather than someone who has proven himself.

I would worry about a surgeon who looks away, as that little look away could mean death.

Combat and surgery are two different things. The surgeon is working on someone without the worry of them being the next one hit by a mini ball or cannon ball. The officer on the field is just likely to get hit as the man on the line.

It is death staring us in the face that reveals to us our inner nature. Also, when reading accounts of the period you must remember they are written by the upper class and men who were officers, who doubt very much would ever put themselves or their class in a bad light.

Sometimes the choice of figures does not directly reflect the owner's understanding of history and tactics. I accept coolyork's conclusion that the vast majority of rankers would have been looking straight ahead at any given moment (with the possible exception of an occasional brief sideways glance to maintain the dressing of the line), but that doesn't necessarily mean that I need to have the figures of every wargame unit simulate this. While I like having my SYW figures (only a few of which are OG) in more regular, forward-facing poses, I also like having my AWI figures (most of which are OG) in somewhat more relaxed and irregular poses. Not that I think British regulars were necessarily less regular in North America than they were in Europe . . . I'm sure they weren't. It just more effectively evokes the period and theater for me.

In a similar way, it would be unsafe to assume (as Joel has done) that KK was chosen by The Centurions (the group to which Joel refers) because of it's SYW verisimilitude. The members who made that call (and I was one of them) unanimously recognize that KK does not portray 18th century tactics very well. It was chosen because most of the potential players were already familiar with it, and new players would find it accessible. I play it and enjoy the games tremendously, but part of my brain has to "squint" while I'm playing to see it as anything eighteenth-century-ish.

Intresting perspectives on this . Let me say again keeping a tight formation of hundreds of men moving forward is quite near impossible if to many men are looking about. Its not just the neck gear ie stocks etc. that made it hard to look about but the way one is holding the gun, the type of headgear , the construction of the coats etc.. During the roar of battle if the men are not paying attention to commands via yelling,drums,horns etc.. things fall apart quickly . A couple figs not looking directly forward fine, most of the figs looking about is not correct . Please dont look at this from a modern perspective, the way people thought and where treated back in the day of tight formation fighting was quite different then today.

If the neck stock kept you from turning your head to the side, how do you aim your firelock if you are looking at your neighbor since your body is now turned to the side.

Having worn one many times ,it dosent actually keep you from turning your head. It does make it uncomfortable to do so however . Keep in mind during this time comfort was not very important , looking good standing there for the General was . I understand that if you have never maneuverd in company,Batt or larger formations this subject may be a bit hard to wrap ones head around . All Im saying is "my opinion" After seeing the pic of OG Prussian unit on this site that the men just seem to be a bit distracted for soldiers ,Pirates maybe ! trained soldiers not so much .

No matter how much some one has reenacted in period uniforms, the whole truth is not know unless you are actually being fired on and your life is on the line. Without facing the horrors of war as it was fought then, there is no definitive way to say these men would not look around.

Plus, with the noise of battle, artillery and rifle fire, along with the clouds created by black powder and it's smell, tied in with the screams of wounded men and clanging equipment, could the sound of drums and officers screams always be heard? Was not the use of the colors, something a soldier could turn and see, also used to let the men know what has happening, such as advancing, standing, or falling back?

We can read the drill the manuals. We can read the unit histories written by officers and others, but aren't those histories written with something to gain by the author? Face it, when it comes to human nature and we are left to tell our own story as it applies to an event in history, we will always paint ourselves in the best light.

Yes, Joel, of course they would try to look around. The sights, sounds and smells of battle all act as distractions that serves to break the cohesion of the unit to function as a unit. This is when the unit's leadership's greatest challenge occurs.

I believe that gamers prefer to make their units "in the best light" (as you say). I know I don't want that look for my units before they even engage in their first combat of the day! Indeed, this "visual" sign betrayed many a unit and acted like a magnet for enemy attention. If the enemy could get that unit to break with little effort, it always presented a new challenge for the unlucky unit's commander's superior as to having to plug the gap in the line.

Even with the dense smoke engulfing the battlefield, you could hear the shouting and cajoling coming from such a unit's leaders in attempts to maintain control even though they might have had a hard time actually putting eyes on the enemy unit. Small arms fire taking place at 50 yards or less would have afforded lots of signs that the unit was in trouble.

So, as you can see, essentially the "Hey Steve…" poses might not be out of place to more accurately portray a line of battle at a snapshot in time, many gamers just don't like 'em to have their units looking less than highly disciplined men eager for battle! While offering these poses adds to the variety of choice, there is not a choice if they will always get some in a bag. Some customers have spoken here; it will be interesting to see how the manufacturer responds to their desires. In all fairness to the manufacturer, there may not be a cost effective action to do anything about it other than to take such under consideration for future releases.

A nice discussion…

Tom

Joel and others ,I think your are missing the point. I never said the soldiers didnt look around for quick a glance . However when you are showing a goodly number doing it I think its to much . I gives the appearence of lack of order . If there was this much looking about and not to mention not touching shoulder to shoulder the units would never make it accross a field to even fight the battle its just not possible . There has to be more order then not . As you say as a reenactor I dont have real lead coming at me and your right but that dosent take away from the fact how formations actully stay together . Useing your premisse that men where constantly distracted and meandering into battle is wishful thinking. I like you would more then likely crap myself knowing what I know if put in one of there battles ,but if you read a bit youll find they looked at things quite differntly then us . PS There are plenty of first hand accounts from particpants other then Officers if you look . This is one of the reason rules give Regulars and advantage over say green or militia troops . Its not just the fight thats important its getting there in order. I do get your point however, just think there are a tad to many looking about thats all .

Like to thank everyone for there opinion and valid points on this matter . Not picking on OG as I have many of there figures and plan to buy more . Often times on these matters I feel as if we were all sitting face to face we could better convey are point with out it sounding so personal . Anyway thanks again for your input .

For purpose of full disclosure this is Russ.

Often I think we as "wargamers" fail to consider the sheer kaos, confusion, fear,etc that was on those battlefields. One cannon ball through the ranks and you now have someones intestines on the front of your coat and a hand laying on your shoulder -- the same cannon ball took off the head of the NCO that monents ago was the object of the soldiers fear --- next a terrified horse who is dragging its own guts along underneath now runs through the ranks -- God forbid a enemy cavalry unit now charges.
Remeber d'Erlons charge that all began with "viva la emperor" etc? It something must have gotten those boys attention and frightened tham real bad?

This is when-- the old "fight or Flee" emotion kicks in --and trust me --as a Vietnam USMC veteran the "flee emotion is very easy to listen to. Remember -- those men on a real battlefields are not glued down in orderly ranks on bases. I have often believed that wargames are extremely over organized and orderly -- I never really cared as I alway veiwed it as a GAME -- I will argue with people that think it is some kind of simulation -- old Colonels syndrome I call that ole boy?
Its not real -- do we really want it to be?
As far as the original comment on the OG figures -- I actually agree with the posters comments -- my own answer to that in my very large 7 years war armies I made years ago (long since sold) was to seperate all the poses into groups and then make individual units from one pose --looked orderly and fantastic,
Or, one could now purchase the New Blue moon figure (shameless plug) and not have that problem.
regards
Russ Dunaway

Russ , Thanks for your remarks . My father Jack Also a USMC Vet but WWII vintage got me into Civil War reenacting many years ago . Sitting around fires at night while he didnt mind talking about Okinawa ,his real intrest was talking about the terrible battles of the Civil War and could never quite understand why men would march up to each other and trade shots till one side or the other melted away in one form or the other . Lets face for a couple hundred years the tactics of the day had not caught up with technalogy of the weapons .

Howdy, Russ. Of course, nobody wants to "game" the blood and gore of war….but many want to ensure that those effects are modeled on a unit's ability to remain functioning is. Without those effects, might as well take the "War" out of "Wargaming.

Without considering what the impact of what has been discussed should have on a unit, the unit seems to always gets to function say at a "5" for every remaining stand it has left. In reality, this is not solved with a morale check….it should be a control check and take the efforts of the unit leadership into effect to see what it has done to keep control on things, and similar factors. In a modelling sense, seeing a miniature unit looking all around in the 1700's creates a shaken unit in the mind's eyes of many who have studied about the periods. Your sculptors and designers put in literally hundreds of hours into getting the details right, this is a small detail they seem to have gotten wrong.

Just tonight, before putting in an order, I tried to look at what the new Blue Moon regular fusiliers and musketeers look like, but could only see their command. I will take your word for it and order a pack in my next order.(I have no reason to doubt you.)

BTW, Russ, this year, the US Army commemorates the 50th anniversary of US involvement in the Vietnam War. While I am a Vietnam Era vet, I thank you for your service to our country in the time of CCR, Jefferson Airplane, Country Joe and the Fish, Hendrix, Guthrie's "Alice's Restaurant" and the like. Boy, how time flys!

v/r
Tom Dye