"Lithuanian vs. Polish Hussars" Topic

Are there any distinguishable differences between Polish and Lithuanian Hussars in the 17th century?

I would not think so. For much of that time, they were one country, the Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth.

But on the other hand there was a difference between the appearance of Scottish and English soldiers, despite being one country. I think it is a fair question, but unfortunately I have no answer.

The only thing I've seen that would contradict John's statement is occasional mentions that Lithuanians might have somewhat older styles of equipment…perhaps more "kapalin" (and apologies if I spelled that wrong) helmets, more of the articulated breastplates after the switch to more solid styles (although that switch itself seems to be debated until quite late in the century). As Lithuanian areas of the Commonwealth were less advanced economically as well, the use of the most expensive furs, etc. might be a little lower – but NOT in the retainers of the great lords (Radziwill, etc.), who were much wealthier than most Polish nobles.

That said, I would expect variations to be minor and limited. I modeled my Lithuanians with 25% kapalins, more wolf and bear furs, but very similar other equipment.

On the one hand, they did maintain the Lithuanian Army as seperate organization from the Polish Crown Army, even though they mirrored each other. However, most Lithuanian nobles were fairly heavily Polonized so they probably followed each other in terms of military fashions. I suspect there were some minor differences but a specialist in the area would have to answer what those were.

As an aside, in the 17th century, given the reference to Scottish troops above, there were significant numbers of Scottish settlers in Lithuania and several Scottish infantry regiments in the Lithuanian army.

Nope. There were no difference at all.
(At least not visible to us. Probably Lituanian hussar could recognize if other guy met on the street was from Lithuania or from the Crown [as was called Polish part of Polish Lithuanian commonwealth or RON] but it would be due to fashion choices and not details of equipment visible in miniatures.)

Generally speaking equipment was just the same.
There were somewhat more western troops in Lithuanian army (more modern stuff due to private funding – household units) but they were treated as different brand of army from national cavalry anyway.

But soldiers of national cavalry were similar in whole country.
(Even with formation that was different in name but represent same kind of unit both in Crown – Pancerni, and in Lithuania – Petyhorcy – despite different name what could be confusing at first – units equipment and combat style was the same.)

Hussars were very rich with personalized armors and expensive outfits and furs and styling but there is no noticeable vitiation in equipment or general style – they have to be rich people and often served more for prestige than for money. Only difference would be banners they serve under.

BTW : I don't think that fur would be cheaper in Lithuania – I would expect them to be more ornate – Crown nobleman were generally poorer and Lithuanians richer and not the other way.
But i doubt it would be visible in Hussars.. There were no poor people there.

And bear in mind while modeling Polish units that color of the horse had meaning. Generaly speaking grey and white should only be used as horses of bannerman and musicians

So Jeff. Does that mean bagpipes in a polka band?

AWuuu:

Thanks for the clarification. I had thought that Gush has made some mention of minor differences but his work is pretty dated as we all know.

It IS interesting to see your discussion of horse colors in Polish units. I was not aware of the use of greys/whites for standard bearers and musicians.

Thanks,

Kyle

John, you've never heard "Roll Out the Barrels" until you've heard it played on the bagpipes. Actually, Poland has it's own highlanders, the Gorale, who live in the Tatras and Carpathians, they do play bagpipes.

AWuuu, speaking of horse color, do you know who used the painted horses and how common that was among the hussars?

Lithuanian winged hussars usually have worse horses then those from Crown (Poland), we have plenty of sources about it. Also, depends on period, quite often units were fighting 'in reiters style' which means without lances. Of course standards (flags) in units were different, as Lithuanian would use different symbols then Poles ;)

Kadrinski:

Lithuanian hussars would not fight in "reiters style" before 1660 or so would they?

Yes they did, very often – for example in 1622 and 1633-1634. Of course not all banners (companies) but that still did happen. Also it was very common – for both Polish and Lithuanan winged hussars – during 'the Deluge' war.

Kadrinazi:

This is very interesting news to me. Using the limited resources that are available in English I was under the impression that this did not happen until late in the 17th century.

It is also interesting that none of the rule sets (including By Fire and Sword) reflect this "option" for winged hussars.

Do you have any comments or ideas about why they would fight like this at times? Were there tactical reasons for it?

Thanks,

Kyle

I forgot to add another question to this inquiry. Were winged hussars always "winged"?

The Hussar lance, the Kopia, was a hollow design which basicly meant that it just ablut always broke when it hit properly and also that a special set of skills was needed to make it. The level of craftsmanship invested in one made it more expensive than a solid design.

I can't answer for all the various Polish wars but in the long Swedish Polish wars of the 17th Century (1600-1629, 1655-1660) wings are not once mentioned by Swedish sources yet they do comment on other parts of the Hussars clothing and equipment. At least for the Swedish military men the identifying feature of the Hussars was their lances, indeed many of them used a slightly distorted form of the Polish word "kopia" when refering to the hussar lances. The second most oftenly mention feature was the wearing of animal skins but this came a distant second.

@xenophon: actually in BFaS we did include such option in Gosiewski Foray (historical skirmish group, its rules are available to download from our website). We didn't not include it in main rules though because players wouldn't use it ;)
In regards to question: why? From two main reasons: either unit used their 'kopia' lances during the battle and could not receive replacemants (they're were very expensive and not so easy to make) or when the unit was organised there were no 'kopias' available to purchase/make so unit was send to fight without them.
Daniel already mentioned matter of the wings. From primary sources and iconography we can see that wings were mostly used in wars against Turks, maybe against Muscovites but rarely against any other nations.