"Mini's or counters" Topic

I know this is a mini's board….but….

I'm still struggling with playing SOLO ww2 mini's game. With counters I can have all the major players units done for $50 USD-60 max. That's for an entire ww2 game from North Africa to the fall of Germany….but, it's counters.

6mm mini's from GHQ are PERFECT size for a big 6'x'6 table, but the cost is going to be great (over the long haul).

To do a Britain vs Italy/Germany North Africa war from 40-41 I'm looking at probably $300. USD

Not married, no kids, no major debt and a I have a good job.

Just…..can't pull the trigger.

I guess if, sometime down the road I get bored….I can sell them off and re-coup some of my cost.

I won't be gaming with terrain. Just hex boards.

So….what would YOU do?

counters or mini's (knowing you're playing w/o terrain)

Thanks for humoring me

Why not both?

Boardgame for most theaters/periods, since its cheap, and then buy enough minis to do a skirmish game, or three.

You only need a platoon or two, for each side, to start having fun. See if you like prepping and painting, plus playing with them. Then, if you do, you can expand from there.

For me, wargaming is an imaginative recreation of military events from history – whether you use models and figures, counters on a map … verbal responses in a matrix game … depends on the circumstances and the players. What matters is that the way the game is presented convinces the player(s) sufficiently at the time.

For me, mostly, that will be a game with figures as I enjoy the spectacle of miniature theatre that goes with the game (like many on TMP, I suspect, that is what draws me into the game's illusions) but I have enjoyed many boardgames, map games, tewts and megagames over the years, it really is down to what works for you.

Phil

Nice idea Mako11!!

Maybe for the less popular theaters (north africa, pacific) I'll use counters.

For D-Day, some Russia vs Germany I'll do some minis.

Why the HELL didn't I think of that?

LOL

Why not do a compromise:-

link

They do "Flats" much better than counters (personal opinion), scalable and cheap. Often thought of doing a show/fun game using them. Did a 2 1/2 D Helicopter (just flat fuselarge, flat wings flay rockets. Fooled a lot of folk for a while 4 ft away.

Well, you could halve the cost by using other makers models, GHQ are very expensive.

You could also go to 3mm/1:600. Picoarmour stocks OO's WW2 ranges which are very extensive and fit well on small tables. Easy to base on larger counter sized bases and (IMHO) look significantly better than counters.

However, if you are actually only playing board wargames, then logic dictates that counters are probably best.

Is $300 USD really that much of an investment for a hobby ? I'd have thought that the time to paint and base them would be a MUCH more significant 'investment' !!!

Sounds like you have your basic needs met (food, shelter etc…) so why not do both? I started as a board gamer almost 40 years ago, but I was also slowly accumulating miniatures also (15mm Napoleonics and some fantasy). At that point in my life I was a DINK (dual income no kids) and we both had decent jobs. Once I got enough figures finished to miniature game I never went back to board games except to use for campaigns.

Since painting is by far the greater consideration than spending money is for you, why not buy enough figures for a small project. See how that goes for you, and whether you like the results.

I'm going to throw in a counter (pun intended) to most of the advice you've gotten so far. Go with counters (the kind with pictures on them, not NATO unit symbols)--since the terrain you are fighting on is flat anyway, just go with it!

Rob

Definitely go with 3mm minis

GHQ are on the pricey side for 6mm figures. You might also want to look at 1/72 plastics for a cheap alternative to larger metal figures.

I have quite a few periods going with quite a few figures for each – I wanted to get into larger (above company level) WW1 or WW2 (playing solo) but the cost and time required of getting the figures together has put me off. I love 6mm, by the way, I have large naps armies and just can't face constructing large armies all over again for a new project.

I would go with counters – but I would like nice looking counters (chunky, etc) but I cannot find any commercially available (yet)and I don't want to spend the time making my own (I have limited time to play as it is)

if you are not willing to invest in terrain map and counters are by far the best alternatives.

Beside the fact that today traditional wargames have very good graphic anyway (Lock and Load for example), they usually tend to have much better engines. There very good games on the market right now, from Panzer Grenadier (platoon scale), to Lock and Load (squad), to Nations at War (platoon again). Flats are silly, stay away from them. They are poor man miniatures but if you want to play in 6mm you will end up with top down that are essentially counters.

Miniatures are good for the visual appeal of the table. But if you exclude terrain from the equation you will end up with silly looking stuff. If you are playing without terrain miniatures are a waste. Just keep the money for something better like another good game or a good book.

I am playing both minis and maps/counters but except for the artistic side (I enjoy painting and building) and for some specific skirmish or low level games I think miniatures are the poor stepchild of the hobby, but the one that gets a lot of undeserved pampering.

I eventually defined my hobby to be hobbies: gaming, and painting miniatures. There's a happy overlap, one derived from the other, but I don't need the minis to play many of my games. I just love painting them. It was a passion that evolved, because it certainly at one time was an onerous chore that nearly kept me from pursuing what I wanted to play.

Instead of trying to lay out everything for all of WWII, pick a subject. Find your theater, the rules, the scale you find most rewarding, and set up a short-term goal. See if it all comes together from there.

When I'm contemplating a new miniatures game, I'm usually ready to dump about $100 USD into it to see if it works for me. If there's a starter box, I make myself paint all the miniatures in there before buying more and adding to the backlog. If you stick with a general theme (say WWII), you'll find components from your first games can still be used with later games -- keep the terrain and the Wermacht, but this week we're going to set aside the Soviets and paint up some British instead.

To avoid the sin of unpainted miniatures on the tabletop, look at spray paints. A lot can be accomplished simply by primering your minis, then spraying them with the appropriate base coat. Russians are Olive Drab. Bam, you've got an army on the table that looks better than what many gamers are using. If the itch hits you to go back and highlight boots, backpacks, faces, and guns, then you're on the road to having a presentable army that you can feel proud for painting.

Objection your honor! ;-). FLATS ARE NOT SILLY. They have a great history and were advocated by none other than the great Donald Featherstone! They are not for modllers they are for players and they are far better than counters in simple cheap games. The fact that the range on Junior Genrals is still growing speaks loudly that it is a cost effective and novel way of depiction.

Model obsession is not the "Way of the wargamer" it is the "Way of the modller" the two do not have to co-exsist as they have diffrent aims.

FWIW I didn't see anything about painting in the OP so if that's not your thing then I'd go counters since you won't be doing terrain. If you are going to just spray some gray, some green, and some tan then see if you can find plastic playing pieces like from the original Axis & Allies game, probably cheaper and more durable and less fiddly if you don't need turrets to move since most minis will be 2 part things. To pay GHQ prices for a quick blast from a spray can, to me, seems like a waste of time & money.

Thank you everyone for the comments and advice.

I see how having mini's on a hex map board would look…..wrong.

So, for "mass" fighting I'm going with counters.

For battles involving my favorite historical themes, I think the plastic 1/72 is a nice idea.

Cost is low, I can paint (which I do find enjoyable) and I can have just a few of my favorites out there on a table…AND, it might even make me throw a little terrain on the table too. For that scale I wouldn't need much.

I like that.

Thanks again folks

"I see how having mini's on a hex map board would look…..wrong."

I certainly hope not or all the money we've spent on Kallistra hexon over the years will have been a bit wasted!

Just a thought; you could look at any investment in minis as a way to SAVE money. As an unmarried, childless, well employed guy I can see you spending a lot of money on typical male pursuits: Wine, Women and Song. Every weekend wiling away over the wargame table is just money in your pocket. Has to save you dough in the long run. I know I saved beacoup cash over the years that way…which of course I spent on more wargame stuff. Well, I'm no economic genius…

Yesthatphil wrote:

What matters is that the way the game is presented convinces the player(s) sufficiently at the time.

Exactly so.

For me, I find miniatures generally the preferable option for games representing a single battle in the pre-cordite era. Once the "empty battlefield" effect sets in, soldiers simply aren't as visible as they were in earlier epochs. Model tanks and aeroplanes are still nice, but in any set of rules that give concealment anything like its proper tactical value they might spend a lot of their time off the table. For anything above the engagement level, though -- operations, campaigns or whole wars -- the commanders will probably be looking at flags or stickies on a map. One could argue that counters are a more "realistic" option at this level.

All the best,

John.

I mostly use actual miniatures and terrain(WW2/Moderns/DnD), but for periods of scant usage (SciFi/ACW) I use counters and hex type maps. There are tons of pros and cons for both. In the end, to save time and money, use well made counters/maps. Not the same visual impact but then again you play solo, so why try to impress yourself? If you find you are quite taken with a particular new time period/theater, get some minis! Best of both YMMV

Why not both?

My solution to the issue for the last 40 years.

When I first did WWII in 1:285 I used minis for the armour, but counters for almost everything else – I bought guns and crews next and then used counters only for infantry – and even though I have some 6mm infantry I still use counters when I need a lot of them

Ha ha. The new guy thinks he'll be able to stop at $300 USD once he gets started.

So true, thomalley!

If there is an active club in the OP' s area, I'm sure they would be happy to give him a taste to see if that is the right way to go for him for his solo project.

Oh, and buy a green piece of fabric, or felt for your terrain, and some material to make bushes, trees, etc.

You can print/make buildings out of paper, or cardboard, to keep expenses down.

Skirmish games on a small bit (or even a larger table) of very nice, realistic looking terrain is a significant part of the hobby as well, when playing with miniatures.

You can easily make some decent looking terrain for gaming, on a very limited budget.

If you make your counters the right size and lay out the info right you can add mini's later. Maybe start with the tanks and AT guns. Also remember that unless you doing divisional scale rules or a break-through scenario you won't need the gun for the artillery battalions.

I'm going counters for everything aspect/theater of WW2.

I'm thinking Russia vs Germany 43-45 and US/US invasion of Europe 44-45 for 15mm

Aerial combat however, is all mini's!

Thanks to all who gave some awesome advice

I've seen some absolutely glorious 3mm stuff, where the gent used the larger bases typically used for 15mm minis and put down an actual battalion by headcount of infantry in their proper formations, file closers and all 500-plus minis. Makes it REALLY hard to stick with 15mm Naps, especially since I haven't made much progress painting.

I'm trying very hard to resist that, because almost all my minis are 15mm these days. Just a "few" (few hundred, that is) 28s for Infinity and RPing, everything else on the ground is 15mm. This means I have a limited number of boxes of terrain. Some terrain is distinctly European, but I can use that for everything from the age of Caesar to WW3 or 4. Some terrain is desertish, which is good for North Africa, the Middle East, Italy, and up into the Northwest Frontier (my big painting project this year is 1897 NWF). And finally some terrain is specific to the Far East (Bamboo forests), with just a few pieces distinctly Japanese (Cherry trees and Torii shrine gates), which is good for battles from Warring States China up through Edo Period Japan, or maybe a bit later. Forests are forests, and are usable pretty much everywhere.

Personally, I've found that if I'm using minis for the playing pieces on a board, I prefer a full 3d effect with terrain/buildings/whatever.

But in your case, you don't seem to have the terrain 'problem'. So you could go for the O8 Pico-armor in 3mm and think about doing terrain in 1/600 scale. With 3mm minis, you can actually put down terrain at the same groundscale as the minis. 1/600 scale is 6"=100yds, so most fighting in Europe is going to take place within 18" of table!

Lion in the stars. Not quite sure about the 18" bit on the table for 1/600. Battle ranges for HMG's is about 1500 yds or 90". Even the Bren gun at 600 yds Effective is 36". MG 42 more like 1000 yds 60".

I like the 1/285 scale best. I buy the vehicles and guns which I started painting the Germans gray and Allies green. Later I'll go into detailing them when I get around to it. I have made my own flat counters for infantry squads using my own graphics design. On the back of the counter I have the info needed for FP, weapons carried, etc. Since infantry is going to spend most of their time on their bellies it works well that they are flat. For NCO's and Officers I use a single mounted 1/285 figure on a 1/2" square base. The platoon squads/fire teams have a color coded border that matches the border on the NCO's and officers so I can keep them together and get a good visual ID on the board. I play 1" = 25m and an infantry team/half squad is mounted on a 1.25" x 1/2" stand so the scale is pretty realistic. Weapons Teams/mortars are 1" square stands. I use the 6mm paper buildings that are free to download and on some I've customized the graphics. As you can tell I'm pretty cheap.

I use different colored lengths of pipe cleaners (green, brown, etc) to put in front of a counter or vehicle to show if it is in an improved position, dug in, hull down, suppressed, etc as I don't like cardboard chits on the table. I use small springs like from ball point pens for barbed wire. I've made my own bunkers and pill boxes from modeling clay and tooth picks. Since the infantry teams are flat they can just be placed under them with no problem.

I've played using a spray painted tarp as a base with terrain and sand/rocks added. It worked pretty well.

Has anyone tried designing a map or taking an image off Google Earth and printing it out on 8.5x11 inch sheets of paper to use as a playing surface? Is there a map maker program that would allow you to do that? Anyone done it in Photoshop?

Wolfhag

Campaign with counters; skirmish with minis.

Without the minis I just can't believe in the action (although boardgames, and board wargames, can also be fun but they are a completely different kind of game and of dream, IMO).

Make your counters out of basing material. Then as you paint miniatures just glue them on the base and flock over the counter.