"Medieval Artillery & Limber" Topic

Hi,

I painted some medieval artillery for our Wars of the Roses games. I also wanted to have a limber, but as there seems to be no manufacturer making a medieval one, I had to convert one. But now we can play scenarios featuring a raid on the artillery train!
For more information, visit link

Cheers,
Shandy

Interesting! I didn't realise that they had limbers that early!

Nice.I like the idea of using peasants as Sappers.

Thanks! Yeah, each time I was ordering some figures I was sure to include some peasants. There are some with axes and hammers that can be used. And I am still looking for figures to use as (or even convert to) medieval sailors…

Noble effort! Looks quite good, but please consider adding more horses. Mules would be even better.

Most likely though, the motive power of choice for such an artillery train would be oxen.

You aren't operating tactically, so speed isn't even an issue. Yet the compact massive weights involved, the rolling friction unalleviated by bearings or durable lubrication, rutted country roads that won't see paving for 400+ years and an "infrastructure" engineered for pedestrians rather than vehicles all make it probable your horse team won't make that second hill unassisted. Now factor in weather, heat, dust, wind, rain, and mud. The energy required to shift your guns just increased dramatically. Your "speed" slows, travel time increases, the boss wants his guns there yesterday so you push exhausted, underfed, over-worked horses harder, & they stop. Or their owner takes them home.

As chief of the train of artillery you are a citizen, or a foreigner hired for the post, NOT a soldier. In the classic definition of "Civilian" you are working with, or for, an army, but you are apart from it. You can't simply commandeer beasts of burden as needed, you must hire them, from local owners, who come along to see their investment isn't abused, and to return home when they decide they are getting too far away. Think of it as a logistical relay "race", rather like the cross country transfer trailer which gets pulled along the highways point to point by a constant series of different tractors, but minus truck stops!!

In your case the yeowman/burgher/peasant resource pool probably doesn't have any healthy horses left after the cavalry passes… Mules maybe, oxen certainly, so you haggle. How much, how far from home, and for how long, gold talks, and make it quick, because the last fellow you cut a deal with is already eager to unhitch and head home with his beasts, and the coins they've earned him. Tomorrow, or the day after, you'll need to do this again. A prudent chief will have scouts ahead of his train, seeking and securing likely animals on the projected route of march.

And ALL of this is contract labour! Artillerists are simply skilled tradesmen, not proper soldiers at all. (some would argue this is still the case…) That they are highly paid professionals, adept in math, practicing engineering, experimenting with chemistry, applying physics makes them unsuitable company for heroes who actually DO personal battle themselves.

To move this heavy, noisy, smelly, loud and dangerous cargo you need strong, tough, durable and reliable animals, replenished at frequent intervals. The horse is not the breed of choice, even if available, and two per vehicle is certainly not enough to get very far for very long.

BGR

Thanks Valerik, interesting thoughts and you are right about the status of artillerists. I actually took the information about horses from Kelly deVries: The Artillery of the Dukes of Burgundy, 1363-1477, where he cites some sources that talk about the number of horses needed to pull carts with cannons – of course you are right, there were much more than in my model! The cart with the barrel of one bombard alone needed 34 horses (p. 48). But perhaps using horses was just the vanity of the Duke of Burgundy ;-)

I'm fascinated that any of this even remotely worked at all!
Given that carriages are only slightly less crude than the weapons themselves the efforts must have been enormous.

Those 34 horses may well have been for show, since they probably couldn't outwork 8 oxen, and would certainly require more food and care. There are work output tables that define "horsepower" across tasks and species, and horses work better for speed than tractive force. Sure big horses pull a lot, but not for long, must eat enormous quantities, require rest and a great deal of attention.

The huge "Dutch" plough horses impressed from farmers in Maryland and Pennsylvania during the Gettysburg campaign all died in harness in a matter of months, of malnutrition and overwork. After initially delighting their Confederate captors they ultimately proved not as durable as normal, smaller, sturdier work breeds. And pound for pound mules outwork horses every time. Always have, still do.

After considering it further I think a better modern analogy would consist of going from farm to farm, hiring tractors, and their owners as drivers, to move your artillery train along for a certain distance, or time. Send 'em back and get new ones every other day or so. Cars (horses) simply won't pull as well or as long as pick up trucks (mules), neither beat a decent tractor (oxen) for tugging & lugging.

Don't even get me started on water crossings without bridges.

The world comes to a STOP. At all but the tiniest shallowest rivulet of a brook that has a decent ford with a solid bottom and gently sloped approaches…

Artillery trains required enormous numbers of animals with their handlers to move diverse vehicles carrying the weapons, ammunition, supplies and equipment. Stretching literally out of sight, plodding along at a brisk several miles per day, likely not traveling 10 total daybreak to sundown, all paid for at day hire rates!!! I stand amazed!!

Any properly modeled miniature train, supply or artillery, dwarfs the gaming table it's placed on. When has an army's logistical "tail" on campaign EVER been smaller than it's tactical combat component? I just like to see more animals attached to vehicles, representing the efforts required, and numbers involved.

That said, I applaud your efforts, many won't even bother.

BGR

I just recently saw a beer cart with 6 horses and that looked difficult to handle – more must be an incredibly effort! I am also very amazed by the logistics that went into moving such a mass of material.
I guess I will try to add more draught animals to the next wagon I will model – I had the idea of doing a transport for a bombard like Simon on the blog mentioned did. And I will use oxen for that!
Thanks again for your knowledgeable input. That's really a fascinating topic, do you have any literature you could recommend?

Literature is kinda tough to come by. Like today, most folks don't write/blog/tweet/u-tube about driving the family sedan to the grocery store or baseball diamond. Everybody does it, everybody knows how to do it, its become second nature, unremarkable. My Civil War library contains fewer than a dozen memoirs by artillerymen who were drivers. And in those volumes probably under 100 pages even mention the act of driving itself. Pretty slim pickins for the period, so full of documentation otherwise. Even the various manuals say little, folks just KNOW, yet they have hidden nuggets of information buried in places you'd never suspect.

18th & 19th century handbooks on farming, animal husbandry, harness making, even engineering have clues to what did, and still does work. As you've discovered close examination of period art goes a long way too.

Like most things in life, it's often best to DO things. Heritage farms, living agriculture museums, Living history demonstrations can all be good sources, as can reenactments, just be as well versed as you can ahead of time so the BS meter won't get overloaded. Folks that DO these things love to talk about it, show you how, or why it's done, and are often willing to share some hands on tasks.

I grew up in the heart of Amish country, seeing working horses and mules regularly. I've been lucky enough to play with Civil War mounted artillery for many years. I can assert that 10 up, 5 teams of two with 5 drivers, can be required to pull a relatively "light" IIIin rifle, or 12 pdr field howitzer, with limber up a very steep ravine, AND need men on the wheels heaving hard on the spokes to get a good start. & this is with proper, top notch equipment, "modern" vehicles well maintained, efficient horse teams who work well together, and experienced drivers. I've also "land surfed" with 6 or 7 other cannoneers gripping a prolong behind a caisson, holding back (HAH!!) a 6 horse team, with wheels locked as we helped them descend an ugly hill. FAR different than handling a carriage or your beer wagon, on macadam streets. I've marched with horses, mules, donkeys and oxen, each have their strengths, uses, & drawbacks.

I've been fortunate. I've had many good times, ate my share of dust or mud, the only two things on the trail menu, learned more about "team work" than any seminar, business course, sports coaching or army training available, and slept, exhausted, at days's end. Make no mistake, working with draft animals is just that, hard, dirty, never ending labour.

And a helluva lotta FUN !!!

BGR

Great idea to go for the limbers.

Darrell.

Darrell Hindley Figure Painter:
darrellhindley.co.uk
Just Add Water II Blog (Painting etc):
link
La Journee Blog (Hundred Years War):
link
Gewalthaufen Blog (Late 15th Cebtury Blog):
gewalthaufen.blogspot.co.uk

Thanks Geoff, I envy your experience with real life limbers and animals. I'll look into heritage farms etc. in my area – that's something my girlfriend is also interested, so we could have a nice day trip.
And thanks everyone for the feedback, that's very motivating!