"Are you having a laugh Wayland Games?" Topic

After taking my money in September for a pre order of two of the X Wing Imperial Aces expansion sets they send me this;

We have an update for you regarding your order for the Imperial Aces expansion for X-Wing (reference 130923-023041-4881).
Unfortunately Fantasy Flight Games have made significantly less of this product available to retailers than was needed. This has meant that at present there is around 10% of the required stock available to us and other retailers. Because of this we are sending out copies of this expansion in order of priority to those customers who placed their orders first and have been waiting the longest. We are also limiting copies to one per order to ensure that the maximum number of customers benefit from this limited supply. If your order is one of those being fulfilled by this initial stock we will notify you shortly (if we have not already done so).
We are confident that more stock is on its way from Fantasy Flight Games and we will get your copy to you, but this may take several weeks for the new stock to reach you. We will of course keep you notified as we receive further information.
If you do not want to wait and would rather cancel your order, please contact us and we shall action that for you immediately.
We sincerely apologise for any inconvenience caused. We are fans of X-Wing and assure you we are just as disappointed by this current development but are working hard with suppliers to source more stock of this highly sought after expansion

You have nearly £50.00 GBP of my money for six months and this is the best you can do? I got a refund and my friend kindly picked up my two expansion packs from the local game store here in York the same day as I got my e mail from Wayland Games.

In future my money will be sitting in my account rather than Wayland Games' and I'll be using shops where I tell them how many items I want rather than them taking my money and six months later telling me how many I can have at some future unspecified date.

I'm sorry that you had to cancel your order but I'm not sure what else wayland games could have done if that is the case.

They seem to have placed an order with the manufacturer and did not have it delivered. I wouldn't say it was there fault exactly.

I don't blame you for not pre-ordering from them in the future, I try to buy as much stuff from the local Brick and mortar shops as I can, but I don't really see it as Wayland games fault. I'm sure they were just as disappointed as the people who didn't get their orders.

X-Wing products are under-produced and allocated by FFG regularly, there's nothing that either the distributors or the retailers can do about that. I can see the sense in not preordering FFG product from anyone, but blaming the e-tailer who isn't at fault is pointless. Save the venom for the manufacturer, a company notorious for supply issues do to using overseas factories for their production.

Seems fair to me…..

Seems everytime I preorder something I get it after other stores have had in stock and sold out and overpaid. Just wait for stores to stock.

Your are quite right to vent your spleen Alan. I suggest you report Waylands to Trading Standards.

Waylands have broken the law.

EU Distance Selling regulations say that companies cannot charge you for goods until they are ready to be sent out to the customer, reasonably this can be the day before.

It is also illegal to advertise products that you do not have.
EU customers can reasonably expect to receive their goods with 30 days of placing an order. So that would allow for a Pre-Order option but if Waylands couldn't provide the goods then they should have as a worse case scenario offered the purchaser a full refund once 30 days have elapsed.

Pictors & Chief Lackey, you say that Alan should not blame Waylands & aim his "venom" at FFG. Far from it.

If FFG are as you state, "a company notorious for supply issues", that may be the case. But Waylands should reasonably be expected to know this and are behaving in a very irresponsibly in offering products for sale that they may or may not ever receive from their supplier.

Offering pre-orders and taking peoples money in the hope that they may be able to satisfy orders is very poor service. Buying on-line should not be a Lottery!

The X-Wing Imperial Aces pack was never due for release until this year so to offer them for pre-order in September last year was irresponsible to say the least!

FFG are indeed notorious for their poor levels of supply and we never list their products until we know they are on the way from the supplier.

btw we do have a couple of Imperial Aces packs left if anyone is interested!

Had they charged your card or just got an approval? If they get an approval your bank sets the money aside against your limit, but its not charged as such. Its kept on hold until the purchase goes through, or is canceled, in which case it takes about 10 days to return to your normal limit.
If the idea of preorder doesn't gel with you, don't do it. Maybe you'll get lucky next time and your local store will have supply left again. Maybe you'll see lots of people walking out with stuff they'd reserved earlier instead and the shelves are bare. I fail to see how this is Waylands fault. They took orders, they ordered from the supplier, the supplier didn't produce enough to meet demand. They reached out to customers offering full refund or stay on the list for the next round to arrive. Id call that good service.

Off course it's Waylands fault. Good service – 6 months for a refund!!

"X-Wing products are under-produced and allocated by FFG regularly, there's nothing that either the distributors or the retailers can do about that".

Rubbish! Don't offer it for pre-order, or restict the number of pre-orders based on previous experience of availablity if you cannot reasonably expect to be supplied with enough of it. FFG have a history of being unable to fulfil orders – so it's entirely Wayland's fault to irresponsibly offer goods they may not have.

Obviously Wayland's competitors will also be receiving stock so this is just a cynical (& illegal) tactic to customers to commit to Waylands.

It is exactly these antics that caused the EU to bring in distance selling regulations in the first place.

EU Distance Selling regulations say that companies cannot charge you for goods until they are ready to be sent out to the customer, reasonably this can be the day before.

Untrue. A seller can take payment in advance if they have provided their geographic address.

EU customers can reasonably expect to receive their goods with 30 days of placing an order. So that would allow for a Pre-Order option but if Waylands couldn't provide the goods then they should have as a worse case scenario offered the purchaser a full refund once 30 days have elapsed.

Not necessarily. A seller can specify different delivery terms: 30 days is the statutory default if other terms are not specified.

Of course you're right, obviously. Brussels said so and they told us what a sausage is so they must be right. I have changed my mind and fully agree that wayland or any other retailer who don't get you your stuff in 30 days are corrupt to the core. Hang them all I say. Companies that take preorders should all be shot… No, strangled, a bullets too good for them.

As for advertising, only if Wayland had grounds to believe it would not be able to source the products would it be liable under consumer protection, not distance selling, regulations.

I don't know the exact legal position, there seems to be some disagreement between posters but I fail to see how keeping my money for six months and offering me half of what I ordered if I'm lucky and at some unspecified future date when they get stock is anything other than appalling customer service.

Gloria Smud said

Don't offer it for pre-order, or restict the number of pre-orders based on previous experience of availablity if you cannot reasonably expect to be supplied with enough of it. FFG have a history of being unable to fulfil orders – so it's entirely Wayland's fault to irresponsibly offer goods they may not have.

Exactly, couldn't have put it better myself.

JezEger said

Of course you're right, obviously. Brussels said so and they told us what a sausage is so they must be right. I have changed my mind and fully agree that wayland or any other retailer who don't get you your stuff in 30 days are corrupt to the core. Hang them all I say. Companies that take preorders should all be shot… No, strangled, a bullets too good for them.

It's not 30 days though mate, its six months and they simply can't fulfil the order. I don't believe that they were completely surprised by FFG not supplying them and that it came out of the blue. Frankly I think it was a case of "let's get customer's money into our accounts and worry about it later. If we have to give it back, hey at least we got a bit of interest on it for a while."

I'm glad you realised I was right. Whilst I share your dislike for Brussels in the case of distance selling they are our friend. BTW Hanging is probably too good them. One of the core elements of the regs is to stop people taking money for stuff they'll never have then filing for bankruptcy somewhere down the road and you never seeing your goods or money again. As has happened to several companies over the years.

Your copy of the EU regs is different to mine then. Most of the vaguer bits are to do with what is reasonable.

"A seller can specify different delivery terms" Yes but only if they are reasonable.

"Wayland had grounds to believe it would not be able to source the products would it be liable under consumer protection, not distance selling, regulations"

Correct – sorry didn't make it clear. However given that FFG have a "reputation" for not fulfilling orders in full then would it not be unreasonable to think that Waylands would not be able to fulfil all their pre-orders.

Not everyone is as good to buy from as you Fighting 15's.

Caveat emptor.

Gloria:

The bit about being able to charge in advance is in the UK government's own guide to the DSRs.

The variation about delivery times is if both parties agree, not whether they are reasonable, and if a buyer agrees to the seller's terms and conditions that state this variation, then both parties have agreed.

I have to know all this stuff because I import from Australia and Poland and like to operate within the law yet still cover the fact that sometimes delivery takes longer than anyone likes. :-)

The DSRs are due to change in June, but the changes they bring in are only applicable to transactions from the date the new law becomes valid.

Best wishes, Ian

I am now going back to my holiday and the trauma of gigantic pizzas

"6 months for a refund!!"

Except it isn't six months for a refund. It is, from my understanding, 6 months since it was pre-ordered and the expected date of delivery was advertised ahead of time.

Well it is if Waylands took the money at the point of pre-order then it's 6 months. What they should have done was taking CC details and then billed when they were ready to ship.

Perhaps we should all remember a certain other company that Wayland's put out of business – they behaved like this as well.

I asked around earlier and ALL the stores I spoke to knew that these items were not going to be released in 2013 at all – so Waylands knew that they would be hanging on to peoples money for months before they could provide the goods. The best expected was Spring of 2014.

No it isn't six months for a refund. It might be six months before he placed the pre-order.

Pre-ordering assumes that the product is not yet available and is something of a reserve order.

The way it works is that a store or manufacturer has plans for a product and lets its customers know about it in advance of its release.

They let them know the release date and then might take orders in advance of that, pre-orders, with both parties knowing that the items will not be shipping until they are available.

The seller does this so they have an idea of how many of the new item to order/make. So if it is a store and they want 10 in stock , they see that they have 10 in pre-orders and order 20 or whatever.

He doesn't say that Wayland claimed the items were available. It sounds like it was a pre-order for the items.

If that was the case then he is only waiting from when he received the email until he gets his money back for his refund.

"Perhaps we should all remember a certain other company that Wayland's put out of business – they behaved like this as well."

I don't know who you are referring to here.

I'm not someone to make excuses for hobby businesses as being smaller or home based or whatever but I do make allowances for happening. happens all the time and if this company ordered all of the pre-orders from the manufacturer plus whatever else it wanted in good faith and then didn't get all of what it ordered it seems like they are doing the best thing they can by filling as much of the orders as they can or giving a refund if requested.

I'm not sure what else they could do under the circumstances. Now if FFG has done this to them before that might be different. Maybe they should warn people up front, but if not there is no reason to expect that FFG would not make the delivery as requested.

"I am now going back to my holiday and the trauma of gigantic pizzas" -----chicago???

Not a supporter of pre orders,Kickstarters, knew the Gentleman that owned the company Gloria Smud refers to personally and he was a decent and honorable chap who got over extended and received much criticism and vitriol on these pages for making this mistake.

" Frankly I think it was a case of "let's get customer's money into our accounts and worry about it later. If we have to give it back, hey at least we got a bit of interest on it for a while." Dead right Alan.

"Now if FFG has done this to them before that might be different"

FFG have and a well known for being unable to provide enough to satisfy everyone's orders. It's happened again and again.

Pre-orders – means the purchaser is entering into a contract with the supplier – it doesn't mean the customer should have to pay up front for something he may or not receive sometime but no one knows exactly when in the future. Waylands could take a deposit. But taking peoples money, hanging on to it for 6 months, and then blaming a supplier who they know full well is unreliable with regards to quantities supplied is very poor.

"The seller does this so they have an idea of how many of the new item to order/make. So if it is a store and they want 10 in stock , they see that they have 10 in pre-orders and order 20 or whatever."
I think you are being very naive. This is all about tying potential customers to Wayland, keeping their money for 6 months (helps cashflow) and then trying to ship the blame whilst not really giving a stuff. They could always order say 10 or 20 and then re-order if they need more but of course that might mean another store selling them instead.

"I don't know who you are referring to here" – have you been living on the moon!

"he was a decent and honorable chap who got over extended" –
They nearly always are and that's why people get stung.
Shall we say a Midlands based outfit which isn't the one you (individual) may mean Spark.

The most important point I can see in this is when did Wayland say the release date was for the 'Pre-order'?

If they said it wouldn't be available for six months then it's only when that time lapses that they need to apologise (and probably only then were they aware that FFG wouldn't fulfill the order). In this case you gave them your money knowing they would have it for six months before you had the products.

However if they didn't give a likely release date then I believe they are at fault as you might have expected to receive the expansion packs sooner.

I thought Wayland games were getting better, but still hear 'horror' stories regards orders that when you place them are in stock, yet months can go buy without getting anything as it's out of stock. Seems odd they cannot give an accurate description of stock on their website. even more shocked Stafford Games is still going – unless it had a change of owner after the unpleasantness of the previous owner's views were aired.

I've only had a few dealing with Wayland Games, but they were enough to make me steer clear. Yes, they solicit 'pre-orders' as soon as a manufacturer announces a product, often many months before an (unspecified) release date. I generally just take these email newsletters as a reminder to call my friendly usual game shop and ask them to save me X or Y. (I suspect it's a sister shop of the one in York that the original poster got his TIE Interceptors from).

My biggest quarrel with Wayland is that their stock level indicators on the website appear meaningless. For the uninitiated they use a traffic light system, but (unless they've changed it since I last placed an order) green meant (and I paraphrase here) 'we may not have this in, but we should be able to get get one inside a few days if you want to place an order for it, but can't really guarantee that'. Hmmm… I got caught with that and trying to pin them down to get a refund can be problematic.

As to Stafford Games, I've only ever dealt with them at shows and generally found them absolutely fine, for what that's worth. I'm totally unaware of any previous nastiness.

Board games companies have been routinely doing this for decades. Admittedly, though, punters do get a substantial discount of the later prices…..

Hi Gloria Smud
I thought i was making it clear, but perhaps not. I don't do or believe in kickstarters or Pre-orders for exactly the reasons you give. I do believe we are talking the same company put out of business. The substantial debt of this company was bought up by wayland.

Hi all – regarding Imperial Aces, we were just as disappointed that we were short supplied as our customers were and immediately notified all of our customers who had pre-ordered. We have then purchased a chunk of stock from third parties (at a cost higher than our sale price to customers) to make sure as many of our customers got this product as we could.

We aren't perfect by a long chalk, but genuinely you will find all of our staff are working hard to improve things. There will always be 'horror stories' but we genuinely want to try and put right any issues reported to us. The vocal minority are far outweighed by the thousands of happy customers each week that use Wayland.

We have not used a traffic light system in quite some time. If an item is In Stock, the website says so. Have a look yourselves!

Further to my post earlier, its worth noting that our pre-order we placed with multiple suppliers was significantly higher than the total actually expected to sell during that period and we still received a fraction of it (around 15% of what we asked for).

In the spirit of full disclosure Gloria, what are your interests in this?

You seem to be making a lot of claims and assumptions about the trading practices of a company in a case you appear to have no direct involvement in.

I'll stand corrected on the way of displaying stock levels on the site then. That's clearly an improvement.

And I think the Moral of the story is… Don't buy from Fantasy Flight Games.

Or do what I do; buy FFG products, but from my FLGS when they have them in stock and held for me.

Wayland games , you have a problem !
even items "in stock" on your website are not necessarly in stock !

Ok, it's less expensive than the brick and mortar, but 2 month for a delivery is way too long for me !