"Scenario in the 4th age of Middle Earth (end of )?" Topic

Ok, I am probably going to get rocks thrown at me and booed….but I have to ask.

I am trying to figure out a way to bring my Orcs (Mordor) back to life in the ending of the 4th age, which would be rougly around 3150 BC, according to the Tolkien Scociety.

I want to have Orcs invasion into the Greek, Macedonia and Roman and even the Asia Minor area. I want to have Mordor Orcs fight these races.

This is about the closest thing I could come up with. I was wondering if anyone had any scenario suggestions, ideal, comments. Anything to make it seem doable.

My idea is to have Morgoth come back at the very end 4th age, and invade the areas of Middle earth that would now be occupied by the Mythical Greece area and so on. I am getting my ideas from using this map. Kinda like having orcs invade the Wargods of Olympus area from Crocodile Games. But I want to keep it middle earth, since all of my massive army of orcs are Mordor orcs, etc

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Any scarios would be cool to hear. I have been trying to find a way to bring my Romans, and Greeks and even Macedonian up against orcs, but have some sort of scenario with it. Which makes it more fun.

Tom

tidesofwargaming.blogspot.com

For Macedonians and Romans, you could have Alex the Great conquer up to the Ends of the World (which would be a boundary into ME.) As for ancient Greeks, shouldn't be too hard to find some god in a bad or capricious mood to scoop up and drop some army or other and drop it into the vicinity of another….

You could have some very neat heroes for this. Please keep us updated with your progress.

Ajax
Hercules
Achilles
Agamemnon
Hector (Don't forget the Trojans!)
Romulus (These guys might be too late but possiblities)
Remus

For Morgoth to return wouldn't that mean that Illuvata is dead? Or perhaps the prayers of evil men unleashed him?

Evil men found long lost temple to Morgoth in land (somewhere between the ME lands and Greece, somewhere in Asia perhaps.) they offered sacrifices there and with each sacrifice Morgoth grew stronger and was able to free himself in spirit only, too weak to take physical form for the magic of Manwe still binds him.

His spirit searches out Valinor in secret and he kidnaps some elves to twist with men into a new race of orcs to serve him.

Has his evil men and orcs build him a new tower on the borders of ME and our realm.

3150BC could give you biblical era opponents.

I would like to see Orcs vs Persians. Persians from the movie 300 would give you tons of human model options. You could include hoplites as Persian mercenaries.

I've fiddled with similar ideas before, although instead of Morgoth's return I would think of the orcs as hold-outs from the end of the Third Age. Some survived and persisted, in some very disorganized manner, and would be ruled by local warlords. I would place them in the edges of what would be thought of as the known world, at the time, so northern parts of Europe and maybe tucked into areas of the British Isles. This would put them in frequent contact with Celts and Germans, but you could make a case for their incursion into Greece and Asian Minor, for sure.

I think its a great idea – new opponents for the Celts and Greeks! As noted, the great green menace lurking at the edge of the world sounds good to me

I like it all!!! The temples worship sounds great. Morgoth killing Illuvata and returning to ME in spirit form after…what is it 6000 years plus..that sounds great. Some of the Greek Gods could be in fact part of Illuvata's children, but in Greek Names…one in the same. Or something in that nature, a connection. I am keeping the flavor of the Greek Mythology at the same time. They could send forth the champions Ajax, Hercules, Achilles, etc…I have all those armies. And as well as Middle Eastern, in my Olympus world campaigns I have the Assyrians in power instead of the Persions, and I have Egyptians. (I dont have any persians..)

I had read about scattered lost tribes of orcs still in the 4th age, and also that very few Elves remained, but a few…no names of course but eventually became spirits. So he (Morgoth) could have found a elf and men where everywhere. To create another host of orcs….I would have to say Valinor is gone and under the sea, and no Elf armies exists, No dwarfs, and no other races except men.

I would take this map that is an overlay of ME on to Europe, if you look at the maps, Mordor is mostly in Northern Macedonia, and parts of Italy, and some of it is under water in the Adriatic Sea between Greece and Italy, the two countries that I want most to fight orcs…now isnt that wonderful.

But that would also be where the Germanic tribes would be in the thick forest of Europe. Remember the Lost Roman Legion, a perfect place for dark things to occur and the rebirth of the Legions of Morgoth to exist and multiple and invade from. Its almost as if I am replacing the Germanic tribes with Orcs….instead.

I probably would make the war last for thousands of years, that way I could play down from 3000 bc downwards to the 300-400 BC time frame…Most of my armies fall within those time frames….but I kept the Assyrians around for way much longer, they would become the mighty Empire the Persians were. Hell I could even make them Evil Men and fight for Morgoth.

That would make it easier to have a variety of time frames, and still tie it in, and be somewhat more realistic with armies of certain eras…such as Rep. Romans, and Macedonia…Ancient Egypt, Assyria and so on.

I could bounce all around in different years, cities, assualts on various cities in the ancient world. It would be obviously a alternate history of what if ME really existed and what it would be like…

But I thought Middle Earth really was a true story…didnt you…haha.

This will take some thought to bring out, but I think it is the best fit to bring Orcs up against Romans and Macedonia, Greece and the Persian Empire (aka Assyrian Empire, in my fantasy world). The Assyrians could be the Evil Morgoth worshiping evil men who helped bring him back, or at least aided him or where forced to. Something of that nature. I think Assyrians would foot the bill for Evil and a powerful army, and be the reason why they existed for so long (in my world).

I would have to make all of Gondor and Eraidor ancient ruins and forgotten empires of the past, ie myths and folk lore, their history almost forgotten. To the point where goblins and orcs were made up stories to scare children, old wives tales…. And no High King exists no longer. Maybe a High King could come forth again..maybe Alexander….Maybe Philip of Macedonia…or…the list is endless.

I would like to begin the campaign however during which all the Greeks and Romans, Macedonians and the Assyrians were at war at each other, each trying to expand their Empires. And all of a sudden Morgoth appears. All of them have to unite to stop him, since his Horde is bigger than any army that exists in ancient times…outnumbering them severely. But the only race that would not would be the Assyrians who join Morgoth instead. (of course with the promise of land, world domination, wealth, world control, etc……which of course is all lies.)

And ofcourse we can not forget Macedonian controlled Egypt..or Egypt period.

And I don't have to change 800 Mordor shields on my orc army…to something else….and it would increase my LOTR game play…I will just group my game campaigns by ERA, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th.

Cool

I'm presuming the map was created by fixing the Shire as being in the midlands which was a nice nod to Tolkiens childhood.

Yea, that is what I read as far as how an overlay was made. Getting it to scale would be the trick. I have seen a few, and all of them seem to be different. I like the one I posted, because where Mordor falls on it, right perfect in the area that I game in with my ancients.

Rather than Morgoth coming back (which signals the end of the world in Tolkien mythology) you could have some other ancient nasty re-emerge from what's left of Angband (in the far north); there were other Balrogs, I *think* other Maiar that followed Morgoth other than Sauron, etc. Overall, I think this sounds like a fun idea.

-Will

Ok, so I just did a bit of research and yep, there were other Maia(r is plural) that followed Morgoth beyond Sauron and the Balrogs, though Tolkien does not name them in the narrative. One of them could have been sleeping/imprisoned and awakens in the later 4th age to rally the remaining Orcs and reinvigorate them under his/her/it's protection. A few centuries of Sauron-esque plotting and maneuvering could see a mighty new Orc army and several human vassal kingdoms ready to war on the Free Peoples once again.

Yep, I'm warming up to this idea.

-Will

Another great idea!!! So this is just too cool!!

I have been like looking thru different games, trying to see what games I could use to bring Orcs against races that resember Romans, and Greeks, etc…but I could not find many games that fit the idea.

I thought about Hyboria…but there never were Orcs in that world. Golarion (the role playing map from Pathfinder) had many races but were all in the medieval like period. Pretty much every game I found was either all human worlds or in a medieval time period.

So that is when I started thinking about ME, the ages that were not talked about much…a wide open road for imagionation. Also the map overlay is really what make it really work, as far as bringing back the evil into Middle Earth…..

Hell, I could even have the dead rise from the ancients of old and have a mixed army of dead and orcs…if Morgoth or who ever is that powerful.

I like the Balrog idea as well….I have a freshly painted one, that would be a great leader. I think all of this could be mixed in.

As far as my game for this…I think I would start the invasion into a three prong attack, of Macedonia, Northern Greece and Northern Italy.

I think the Assyrians I have, or anyone who has Persians, etc…could say they are almost linked to the Easterlings or Harad of old…which makes them more allied with Morgoth or the evil side.

Extremely over the top Tolkien fans would be shutting the doors on me now….especially the book reading clubs.

Ok, seems I was wrong on the dates, the 4th age last for 6000 years or so, ending around 1 AD. The time of the Ancient Egyptian dynasties would be around 30004E, etc. I think I will game in the time frame of 50004E-55004E or 1000 BC to 500 BC time frame.

Here is an idea on a map.

tidesofwargaming.blogspot.com

I think that in one of the books published after Tollkien died, there was a story set in Gondor after Aragorn's death and during the reign of, say, his grandson – which was quite a while after LOTR. By then orcs were unheard of except as stories…..the story was a departure in style for Tolkien, apparently heading off into a more psychological tone with the hero discovering something rotten in Minas Tirith. IIRC the hero arrives home to find his door open and "smelt the old evil and he knew it was real."

The story then finishes abruptly……which is quite dsturbing. But again IIRC, Tolkien didn't finish it as he wanted the Return of The King to be a firm, decisive victory for good and dark cults in Gondor would undermine that. But, that is a pretty clear indication that Tolkien contemplated a continued evil in Middle Earth and that it was the insidious kind that would corrupt from within (cf Saruman). With that in mind the arrival of orcs in the classical world can easily be put down to a degenerate cult getting in too deep in things best left unmeddled with. Further, if the damage done to the Shire is Tolkiens indictment of "progress" then to keep to that spirit, there is no guarantee that the force you'd rely on to fight this evil – the Romans – are actually going to be on the right side. So it's down to the Greeks and the untainted barbarians north and west of the Rhine to save the day.

Sorry, I forgot how you were looking to have your ancient world set up. But I think you should seriously look at the enemy within factor – especially with Rome. The evil need not be based exactly where Mordor was, that could be the battlefield.

I'd say this makes me look at the Persian army in "300" in a very different light.

Now that would be interesting…have the Romans eventually turn on Greece…like they did anyway. I like the cults, sorta in the same flavor as what happened to Numenor with Saruman. Maybe Sauron in another form.

Is Sauron really totally destroyed. This is what I found.

"If it is destroyed, then he will fall; and his fall will be so low that none can foresee his arising ever again. For he will lose the best part of the strength that was native to him in his beginning, and all that was made or begun with that power will crumble, and he will be maimed for ever, becoming a mere spirit of malice that gnaws itself in the shadows, but cannot again grow or take shape. And so a great evil of this world will be removed."

Sauron does survive the destruction of the ring but he is powerless to take action in Middle Earth ever again. However, in the original ending of The Silmarillion Tolkien wrote that Sauron would arise during the Dagor Dagorath or "Last Battle and Day of Doom" when his former master Morgoth breaks the Door of Night and destroys the sun and moon.

This seems a good fit with the story line.

And I thought of 300 in a different way as well…I am sure you can imagine. Orcs and Persians (I would have Assyrians) at Thermopylae. The Battle of Marathon afterwards, although I would rename the battles in a different way, not to step on historical toes.

But the last battle to be interpreted as a long war, not one battle. But maybe some power near the end changes the end doom. I do not want to know the end story….just a way to get the forces together on a battlefield. Merely just break the Door of Night and let the war begin.

Someone mentioned, (wminsing) maybe someone other than Morgoth….or how about along with….maybe the rise of another witch king again as one as his lieutenants.

Well, I have time to think while I paint 450 orcs.

I have been reading the Book Of Lost Tales II, the last chapter, The History of Eriol or Elfwine…pretty interesting narratives that Tolkien could not finish. It refers basically to what I understand the end of Valinor and the coming of the Elves to Luthany (England)…and that there were 7 invasions of Evil men along the shores, that lead to the elves finally fading and the ruin. It even mentions Romans invading and destroying. Complicated to read. But a connection. But his time frame is way off, and his son said he thinks he could not complete the narrative because of the time frame, mainly because Tolkien mentions the words many 100's of ages the Elves dwelt in Luthany (England)…The Evil men he seems to be referring to the Anglo-Saxons.

If you have the book of Lost Tales II read pages 308-309. You will see what I am talking about.

Anyways, its at least a connection to Europe, just the time frame does not make since. What I gather Its referring to what he calls the Faring Forth into the Great Lands from the a disaster on Valinor (I think he is talking about Melko) But Melko is chained. So did Melko go down with Valinor into the Sea?

So now we have Melko…and Morgoth coming available for a plot.

The elves fade away, and become faeries to men…and legend, what I understand from reading. It pretty good proof that he was trying to connect the Shores of England to at least Elves of Valinor.

I think Melko could have come unchained and free to set fourth the Prophecy of the Faring Forth, and the End of the Sun and Moon that Tolkien refers to.

But he sure mentioned Romans, calling them Rumhoth.

Melkor/Morgoth is to Middle-Earth what Lucifer/Satan is to our world & Christian theology. The Valar are essentially arch-angels and the Maiar are angels. So Morgoth is a fallen arch-angel, but should be the only one, while a number of Maiar joined Morgoth. Sauron was one of many Maiar, but possibly more powerful as he was Morgoth's lieutenant.

IIRC, Morgoth is chained and will not appear again until the last battle. He's trapped in a void outside of the universe. So he's nowhere near Valinor.

Valinor is no longer of the world. When the Numenoreans broke the Ban and invaded it, the Valar set aside their guardianship and had the One intervene. The One removed it from the plane of Middle-Earth and now only the Elves can sail to it. (I'm pretty sure there was a diagram of how this works in one of the books Christopher Tolkien published.) So Valinor exists and has not been destroyed, but for all the effect it will have on Middle-Earth after its removal it may as well be a myth.

Personally I like the idea of cults arising and turning various ancient empires to the worship of Morgoth. This is what Sauron did in Numenor, turning the Numenoreans away from the wholesome worship of the Valar and the One to offering human sacrifices to Morgoth. And of course Saruman tried this tactic and almost succeeded in Rohan, so it seems like SOP for evil when they are initially weak and need to get a foothold.

After a number of countries have turned, then a (formerly) minor fallen Maia will step in and invade with an orc army. Since I like undead, I'd find an excuse to bring in barrow-wights, but the Ring-wraiths are out, unfortunately.

Anyway, have fun with this campaign.

I was thinking about bringing in undead as well. All the info I believe you are talking about is from the Silmarillion. I think what I was reading were notes he made while or after he wrote that book. Not sure. But all that you said sounds great to me. I think there is enough to write up a pretty good intro into the 4th age campaigns. I just want something, so that if anyone asks, how did you get Greeks, etc. fighting Mordor, its there in the start of the campaign. Everything after that will be easier.

It would be cool if others would game this as well, and post it or blog it. So that others as well as myself could make scenarios off others gamers scenarios in the 4th age of Middle Earth. After the intro…all I will do is write up battle scenarios, such as cities being attacked, engagements…maybe a few small other plots, such as cults rising out of empires to worship Morgoth, etc.

Great stuff! Thanks! I am a big Tolkien Fan and have listened and read the Silmarillion and Lord of the Rings books, but my memory is not the greatest. I have sorta read some of the other books on the history of Middle Earth, but not in depth, so I appreciate all the info and ideas and help from everyone.

My Orcs will now be happy to engage Greeks. I think I will corrupt the Romans and have them turn and worhship Morgoth. My Assyrians already are, right now as we speak they are in Worship to Morgoth…

I have to keep the Macedonians on the good side with Alexander and Philip. The murder of PHilip can be tied in to a cult maybe.

I have always wanted to have a massive Orc and Undead army together in one army…I think we are on the same wave link.

I think Tolkien refers to the "bending" of the world so that while the elves sail off into the Uttermost West and peace, the rest of us reach America. Though in one of his stories – Voyage of Brendan, the saint does reach a western shore with an angelic figure which prevents him from landing.

Please keep us posted – this does sound like a very good concept.

You're welcome, darclegion. I am also a big Tolkien fan, and have read most Christopher Tolkien's books on his father's work, but that was 10-12 years ago, and much of it has faded.

Yes, you're correct that the stuff I mentioned above is from the Silmarillion. It's easier to remember since the Silmarillion is a barebones synopsis of what Professor Tolkien was working on.

Here's another blog, but one looking at the wars of the North-Kingdom.
dagorath-arthedain.blogspot.com

If I was doing s ME campaign, I'd follow his example, as the Decline and Fall of the North-Kingdom has a strange fascination for me. And of course, Aragorn's forefathers kept the bloodline of Elendil alive in the north while it failed in the south despite Gondor never being conquered.

Re: Orc and Undead army. One could have it if running the army of the Witch-King of Angmar. Orcs, wild men, fallen Dunedain, and undead. Still remember Greek mythology and Cadmus sowing the dragon's teeth, and armed men rising from the field. The late Ray Harryhausen chose to show this as skeletons and you can do likewise, particualr since you are using some Classical era armies.

@Goonfighter. Yes, that's it, thank you. The One intended Middle-Earth to be a flat world, but had to bend it thanks to the breaking of the Ban. So Middle-Earth is a round world for everyone else except the elves.

Assume Blog!! And I do plan on doing some Arnorian campaigns for sure. That will give me a reason to paint up some more "Gondor" figures, but paint them in Arnorian schemes. Great Stuff. Thanks!!

Tom

Some fantastic discussion here, I'd definitely like to see what everyone else does with this idea. Heck, between the Wargames Factory Orcs and all of the Ancients sets coming out in plastic I might even jump in….

As for Rome falling into Darkness I think that makes sense. Maybe a little late for our time frame, but you could link the fall of the Republic and the rise of Julius Caesar to the ascendency of these dark cults in Rome. Or Rome could always have been evil (guided to power by agents of the Dark Lord or his proxy), and that makes Carthage a good guy.

Heck, there's lots of room to re-cast Carthage as a hero civilization in this scenario; it was settled by Phoenicians, in this 4th age idea they could have remained loyal to the Valar and fled the Middle East due to oppression by the Morgoth-worshipping Assyrians.

-Will

I'm really excited that there is a vibrant discussion here about the 4th age of Middle-earth. This is my favourite RPG setting. For those with an interest in the first century of the 4th age, feel free to check out my campaign and timeline link here:
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Good luck with your upcoming end-of-4th-Age campaign. Sounds very interesting.

Best,
Kevin in Edmonton

I am very interested in this idea still, just busy painting. When I play a game or scenario in the 4th age, I will post the game.

Tom

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Why not use the Ringwraiths as a factor? The Nazgul fell yes, but what aa out their rings? If the rings are not destroyed are the spirits not possibly still linked to them? ;)

About. ;)