"Bolt Action: Is the loader rule at all useful?" Topic

Just getting started with BA. Not really confused about the LMG loader rule, just wondering if there's any real point to it.

I realize that the concept is that one guy per LMG is busy loading and can't fire, a nod to realism.

With all of the controversy and rules-mongering around it though, wouldn't it just be easier to skip the whole thing? At most, simply ignoring it would give you 1, maybe 2 extra dice of firing, and it doesn't seem to really do anything at all until you have a team all shot apart anyway…

Well, by the same token, why not equip all your troops with LMG's? Because it wouldn't be realistic. Likewise, an LMG requires two man crew, gunner and loader. Yes, it may be more effective to have 2 rifleman under those rules, but that's a weakness in the rules, not a reflection of reality.

Well if you use the rapid fire rule for the British you can make up for the fact that the loader doesn't fire. Most use a SMG armed man as loader over 12" as well which is not historic but you can do it in the rules.

The extra 6" for the LMG can be useful and I don't really like not taking a Bren in a section.

doesn't an Lmg with loader fire three shots. seems two figs with rifles fire only two then you get more shots and an extra 6" range.

Only played BA once or twice but 3 shots Vs 2 does seem a bit strange
Does this apply to MG 34/42 also?

Sorry, wasn't quite clear.

I was thinking more about the "floating loader" thing, where you can designate any given guy as the loader for an attack at the time ( cheesy, but apparently some people do it, switching from attack t attack, especially if SMGs would be out of range…) combined with the idea that
loaders constantly get replaced when hit.

It just seemed like some weird extra steps for no real gain, and for a net gain of only one extra shot above a pair of riflemen in most circumstances.

Be gentle. I'm still learning the hows and whys of Bolt Action.

The dice limit and transport rules seem awfully strange too at first glance. Not the rules themselves, so much as some of the unintended warping effects on the game as a whole…

As for the question regarding loaders. You seem to have answered your own question. The biggest benefit is that one can reorganize a squad on the fly to get the maximum fire power from turn to turn.
These are indeed cheesy rules. But they are simple and let players play a complete game very quickly.
The bunch I game with disregard dice limits. We allow as many units as one can field for the points allotted.

We just add up the dice output. Over 12" an SMG is left out, under that a Rifle.

As for house rules, I might allow empty transports to use a FIRE order and make assault rifles 10 pts.

I'd have to read them again but I thought the intent of the rule was to assign a loader and stick it that way. The loader could then pick up his rifle if the LMG guy is sniped. At least that seems a better house rule then eliminating the position all together.

I can see people gaming it but it seems like a loophole and not the intent of the rules.

Regarding how cheesy it is to have a floating loader (who is often the NCO armed with an SMG) there was a thread here recently where an actual NCO argued that it is realistic, at least today, to have the NCO play that role since he basically fills in any task that is needed to maximize the squad effectiveness.

PLEASE note: this post is based on my inexperienced/non-millitary knowledge of how small units operate, with neither military service or experience with Bolt Action.

Seems reasonable to me from a realism point of view particularly considering that at least in a commonwealth section The Mags for the Bren were distributed fairly evenly amongst the section and everyone would know how to load and fire the bren, to keep the sections main asset operating.

Sure the assistant for the bren would carry more magazines and the spare barrel, but it wasn't an irreplaceable task. Also seems reasonable to maximise your firepower dependant on the situation. It might be easier to organise in defensive/static position as opposed to out in the open/dispersed, then it may be more realistic to work by proximity to the bren gunner.

[Thought bubble/house rule to add colour/Just to needlessly complicate matters] maybe an ammo check role (a bit like necromunda) would mean you'd have to shuffle your boys around, maybe with the assistant getting more checks before needing to move? Doesn't sound too cumbersome. You get through all your section numbers then you're down to personal weapons/cold steel or withdrawing.

Cheers

Chris

I guess this is just one of those things I have to see in action to appreciate how it works.

I assume it works like Rrobbyrobot says, for simplicity's sake and ease-of-play. One of those cases of doing something different would either add too much fire-power or bog down play with minutia.

Am I right in assuming there's no point in targeting a loader if you get a sniper hit or one of he special hits where the attacker chooses casualties?

As for the transports, I'm still trying to wrap my head around all of the rules related to them.

Mr Elmo, I was wondering if a house rule similar yours would work, but _only_ if the empty transport was within 6" of a friendly unit ( any sort, though presumably most likely their former passengers). And yes, a Fire order only. No acting as a cheap mobile gun platform driven by a used-up FO or Medic.

Also, if any of you have advice on practical uses of transports, let me know. I'm a bit confused about how one uses them without immediately getting them killed.

Is the basic method that they hide out somewhere in the back, then rush forward with reinforcements to places you already have troops ( or sneak cover to cover then make a rush for the endzone in battles where you need to get to a certain point or off the enemy table edge)? They seem almost impossible to use any other way, and particularly useless as flanking units.

I've been thinking of using the transports as a flank shield and something to soak up fire. I have not tested to see if it is worth the points yet. It's also tricky to keep them alive and still get the benefit. It will work if you have advanced units in cover further up the board and need to get a squad across a space that is open on the flank to an MG or something else nasty. Park it in the middle and you can leap frog your guys across a space in cover. Probably have to use armored transports so they don't get popped by small arms as easily.

You might also get some use from them as fire support. Bring a minimum squad of guys and stick them in the transport to man the guns. Flank the transport on both sides with your advancing troops and you have a bit more fire power and basically a mobile MMG.

Again I have not tried any of this so none if it might work so well on the table :)

_only_ if the empty transport was within 6" of a friendly unit

No real need as the transport has a driver. He's driving on Run and Advance orders but shooting during a Fire.

All other rules still apply so don't let the enemy get too close!

I was thinking more in terms of not letting them get too awfully bold, zipping around and causing trouble on their own.

I figure, if their pals are nearby, well they might stick around and give some covering fire. When they're more on their own, their tendency is to drive away to some place not so noticeable to the enemy and hope no one notices them!