"Spanish cavalry 1600" Topic

I've just received the 15mm Spanish infantry for the very late 16th to very early 17th C -- they were made to represent the tercios (sorry Daniel S) sent to help the Irish during Tyrone's Rebellion (a range we already make).

But of course we are going to want to build cavalry as well, so the complete Spanish army can be fielded. What's the main Spanish cavalry type circa 1600 -- is it still the 3/4 armoured lancer, or had Herreruelos pistoliers taken over as the main heavy type by then?

Any chance you could be a good to us and show us a few pictures of the infantry ?

In 1600 the Caballos ligeros aka Compañías de lanzas still made up a large part of the Spanish cavalry, particularly in the field armies you could still get around 40-50% lancers if a major effort was made. But their numbers were diminishing as they were increasingly replaced with mounted arquebusiers and cuirassiers/pistoliers who were easier to recruit locally. (In the Army of Flanders that is)

The remainder would be either Arcabuceros a caballo (mtd arquebusiers), Corazas (cuirassiers) or Herreruelos (Reiters). The last two groups often get lumped in together and can be bothersome to separate unless you have some fairly detailed documents.

Lanzas would be Spanish or Italian, Arcabuceros a C. were mostly recruited from Wallons or Burgundians while Corazas were Wallons and Germans for the most part. Herreruelos were German Reiters who had not yet upgrade themselves to Cuirassiers.

Thanks Daniel, so it sounds like the lancers are still the core of the heavy cavalry in the period under discussion.

Yes, the main problem was keeping them supplied with the high quality horses they needed which was a real problem. (A part of the Spanish cavalry in the Low Countries was often dismounted due to a shortage of horses.)So even though the "Spanish" cavalry specialists like Basta and Melzo were very much in favour of the lancer as battlefield cavalry they considered 25% the ideal number supported by 25% mounted arquebusiers and the remaining 50% being cuirassiers.

Just to confuse us later day types the Lanzas were considered "light cavalry" by the Spanish :P (Due to being lighter in equipment than the men-at-arms of the Ordonnance Bands)

The Lanzas had some distinguishing features, one was the use of a long Cassock worn over the armour. Heath has a good reconstruction of it's appearance but avoid the erronous version found in the Osprey MAA book covering the Armada campaign. Another was the fact that they effectivly wore 1/2 armour rather than 3/4 armour due to their habit of discarding cuisses and/or tassest. Basta in particular complains about this bad habit since it left the thigh exposed to the "deadly blows of the pistols".

Daniel-Didn't the Spanish still have two types of lance armed horse at that time, one similar to the French archers (from the gens d'armes) of a few years earlier, and the other a lighter horse? It was my understanding it was the latter which the English encountered at Zutphen in 1586.

Also I am somewhat confused about the Herreruelos. Some sources suggest they were simply reiters serving in the Spanish army, but some pics (admittedly from later sources) show a lighter armored horse in a more Spanish style costume. Was the term used to refer to pistol armed horse generally, regardless of origin or armour, or did it have a more specific meaning?

The other type would be the lance armed Albanians, at times also refered to as Epirotes by some sources. They were true light cavalry and not only fought with little or no armour but also used a diffrent lance than the Lanzas. The "Spanish" cavalry at Zuthphen was a mix of Italian Caballos Ligeros/Lanzas and Albanians. Wikipedia has a surprisingly good article about Zuthphen which does a good job of presenting how diffrent sources viewed events as well as providing a detailed description of the action. link

When you look at the written sources it is clear that the word first and foremost refers to German Reiters (at least in the 16th C). I've so far never found a reference to anything but Germans when the word is used. Spanish dress or at least parts of it became rather fashionable for a while and influended the mode of dress well outside Spain. Jost Amman images show German noblemen and Reiters wearing a mix of German and Spanish styles. As the "old" flamboyant German style of dress went increasing out of fashion the Reiters would have become much more "Spanish" in apperance. (Though wearing a German version of Spanish dress rather than an outright copy of it)

So this is the picture I've formed, please correct me if wrong

Lanzas; Lance armed cavalry, in cassocks and half armour.

Arcabuceros a caballo; arquebus armed, light armour? Helmeted? Are they comparable to the English "petronel"?

Herreruelos; pistol armed, light or no armour? Also describes German "reiters" recruited for Flanders.

Cuirassiers; Pistol armed? Three quarter armoured. Mostly Germans?

Albanians; light lances, unarmoured.

This article by Simon Chick includes some images of woodcuts by Jost Amman

Druzhina
Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers

Arcabuceros a caballo; arquebus armed, light armour? Helmeted? Are they comparable to the English "petronel"?

These fellows were both armoured and unarmoured. The unarmoured troopers would wear a hat or (preferably) a helmet and be armed with arquebus & sword. Some would have pistols as well. The armoured troopers had breast and backplates together with a morion or open burgonet, arquebus, a single pistol and sword. Sir Roger Williams refers to the morions as "Milanese morions" that is the Italian form with a comb. Also wore cassocks in the same style as that of the Lanzas though some may have been of a shorter, less full cut. As the cassock would completly cover the armour when buttoned close it is quite possible to make a figure which can be used for both types as the breastplate would not be visible unless the cassock was at least partly open.

Cuirassiers; Pistol armed? Three quarter armoured. Mostly Germans?

Pistol armed, 3/4 armour but not yet the classic TYW style, some with full armour (i.e with full leg harness). Cassock worn over the armour like the Lanzas. In 1600 mostly Walloons or "Lorrainers" (i.e Catholic Frenchmen and Walloon mercenaries who had served with the Catholic LEauge in France)

All very helpful. Daniel, what are your thoughts on the horse furniture? I see straps on the rump of the horse that are very long in many images of the French Wars of Religion period, and at least in the art it's very widespread, but I'm not sure when that fashion subsided.

Long straps can indeed be seen in a lot of images but they begin to get scarcer after 1600. The question if the long straps were actually worn in the field? Savery's 1604 painting of a village being plundered only shows a few horsemen with long straps and those furnitures only have a single strap on each side. They are also rare in Vrancx early work though those paintings are about 10 years later than the period you are interested in.

Savery 1604

Cuirassiers in the Netherlands by De Gheyn, the somewhat odd looking helmets are closed burgonets & ordinary burgonets fitted with a "falling buffe" to provide facial protection. De Gheyn used a bit of artistic licence when drawing these and there are some diffrences between the art and the actual helmets.

Seems like both photobucket and TMP did a number on the size and quality of the Savery images. I'll try to e-mail them to you instead.

To get an image wider than 1,024px from photobucket you need to put ~original after .jpg

With Firefox – right-click on the image and choose 'view image' to see the full size.

Druzhina
Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers

I've been hanging on for these ever since you posted a picture of the Royal Swiss, so a picture or two would be nice !!

How would the type of cavalry known as "Caledas" in the FoG lists look, and which category of the above would it fit into, assuming they actually exist?

If they did exist, it sounds very much like a "Lanza" with a different tactical role?

Celadas are Lanzas by another (old fashioned) name. They got that name from the helmet (celada i.e sallet) worn in the early 16th Century when they came into existence.

FOG-R gives the Celadas "light lances", basicly because a single source form the time of the Italian wars makes the claim that Spanish lances were lighter than the French. Why this should hold true 60-70 years later is never explained and is in fact not supported by any sources describing the Army of Flanders in action. For example Sir Roger Williams who both fought against and with the Spanish in the Netherlands expressly wrote that the Lanzas were as well armed as men-at-arms.

Thanks Daniel – and I agree about the single (French) source regarding the lances.

Figures are nearly done, there's three lanzas in cassocks, three armoured arquebusiers, three un-armoured arquebusiers, three herreruelros with pistols, four cuirassiers in cassocks, but I haven't armed them yet.

So two issues arise from this; cuirassiers, should they be given swords or pistols or a mix (two of each in this case).
the other issue is horses. At the moment I have four with furniture with long straps and four without.I have to decide which get pistol holsters. Herreruelos and cuirassiers should have them, but arqubusiers and lanzas may or may not have. If I put the pistols on the horses it cuts down what the individual horse can be used for. I can put them in the figure, but that can be a slightly awkward fit.

Cuirassiers should have pistols, it is their signature weapon and their tactics were entirely based on making the most effective use of the pistol.

Lanzas should have a_single_pistol holster as should the armoured mounted arquebusiers. The unarmoured arquebusiers should not have pistol holsters. This would be the most historical solution but I can see how it doesn't fit well with the economic reality.

In addition I must say that it sounds like an excellent expansion of the range with figures that could be pressed into service with little or no difficulty in more than a few contemporary armies.

Another thing is that this is the period in which pistols begin to change into a new and very long design compared with the older German "puffer" styles. Dutch pistols were supposed to have barrels that were two feet long(!) according to the 1597 regulations though artwork suggests that the shorter German style continued to be used as well.

Hmm, it sounds like the pistols holsters will have to go on the figures, since there's three possible configurations, I'd need four more horses (giving twelve in total) if I was to put the weapons on the horses. That's not viable unfortunately.
I take it that both Herreruelos and cuirassiers should have two pistols? In the case of the cuirassiers should they all have pistols in their hands? I had thought that maybe two should hold pistols and the other two swords, being persuaded by the de Gheyn engravings shown above.

Not sure if you have modelled the Herreruelos as what they actualy was i.e German Reiters, then they would have two pistols but in a diffrent configuration due to the German habit of having the holsters side by side on one side of the horse rather than one on each side in the configuration that became standard for the 17th Century. link
(Though of course most wargamers would not notice the abscence of German style pistol holsters)

If modelled as a sort of "Spanish" looking medium cavalry which is the classic but erronous wargames interpretation of them then they should have two pistols but in the "one on each side" configuration.

Cuirassiers get two pistol holsters, one on each side of the horse's neck/body.

It all depends on how you want to model the Cuirassiers, according to tactical theory they would make the approach and the charge with pistol in hand, swords would only be drawn in the melee or for the pursuit. Swords would also be drawn if both pistols were expended and there was no time to reload but doing so was to be at a disadvantage if the enemy had loaded pistols and heavy armor.

The de Gheyn pictures of sword wielding cuirassiers are actually unusual and very much part of a minority if one looks at how cuirassiers were portrayed in art. Included them because I don't have a lot of images of cuirassiers in cassock.

Ok sounds like cuirassiers might be better with pistols.

The herreruelos are of the "Spanish" sort, like so;

I was a bit sceptical about these at first, but I do tend to trust Ian Heath's interpretations and was sold when I saw lots of them in the San Quentin murals in the Sala de Batallas. I will probably do some German reiters when (if) we get on to the Dutch.

After making a complete spanish line, how could I not make the Dutch?

The Spanish foot are being cast now.

I'm afraid that Ian Heath is a flawed source since he is limited by the language barrier and relies too much on English language sources and artwork while neglecting important sources in Dutch, Spanish, Italian and German. It is telling that in his chapter about the Army of Flanders the "Brittish" troops get as much space devoted to them as the Albanians, Italians, Burgundians and Walloons do together even though the "Brittish" were the least important of these groups. (And only the Albanians were fewer in numbers)

When it comes to Herruelos in general and Saint Quentin in particular I would put more trust in the actual eyewitnesses and commanders present than in the artwork made by painters not present at the event. They disagree with Heath as far as the nationality and origin of the Herruelos is concerned as well as regarding the equipment used. The Sala painters have clearly tried to depict German Reiters but done ended up giving them a more 'spanish' apperance far as the clothing is concerned. And of course the riding capes cover any armour worn.
I have no doubt that these will be fine figures and I'll be happy to buy some of them even if they won't get fielded as Spanish

You can see the similarities between the Sala paintings and these unarmoured Reiters from my copy of Fronsperger's "Von kayserlichem kriegssrechten, malefitz und schuldhändlen, ordnung und regiment." (1566 edition illustrated by Jost Amman)

As always the diffrence is in the details where the German style clothing has morphed into Spanish dress, first in the Sala paintings, then more so later interpretations such as Heath.

Hmm, I wasn't aware of that, I can see how these could have been confused. I could potentially convert the "Spanish" pistoleers I've done into these guys, but it might be more work than starting over with new dolls. Of the tree I think one is in full armour, no helm, one as some armour and the third has none. All have cloaks which is what makes the conversion difficult. Could they be changed into a more "German" appearance and keep their armour? Otherwise I think its a case of starting over.

Another quick question; those men with pistols on one side, which side was it? I assume the left so as to be able to draw with the right hand? Looks like the left in those images.

Yes, they were on the left side. If you look at Daniel's post from 12 Sept at 4:48 there's a link that shows this. The man on the right shows it clearer -- look at his left hand, you can see the bulbous pistol grips sticking up.

But only If equipped with German style holsters which I've nerver seen used by non German cavalry that late. Working on an explaination to be sent by email to you both later today

As an update, I'm very pleased to report that clibinarium has completed all of the models except the cavalry command, which are being finished up now, and the first batch of Spanish horse will soon be on their way to me.

Daniel S's help was invaluable and is greatly appreciated!

The Spanish foot are cast and I've sent them to the painter so they may be finished for display on the webstore. The cavalry as one might guess will take a bit longer. The English are done and will be released soon--they are currently third in line for historical releases.

After the Spanish are complete I reckon Germans make the most sense to make, as they were hired by virtually everyone in this period. Then Dutch.

And to think, this all started because we made an Irish range! Then it occurred to me that it made sense to make their opponents. Then it made sense to make their opponents. Und so weiter….

That's how my dark ages line began, as a matter of fact. I made Norman mercenaries for my Byzantine range, then people started asking for foot for them, and that led to Saxons for them to confront ….

Daniel, what do you think of Heath's images of German foot for the period roughly 1585-1600? The ones with either barret or the bell-shaped hat.

Ditto Reiters -- do his figures look about right?

All of Heath's images of German show a somewhat earlier period, eassentialy later half of the 1560's into the 1570's. The evidence that the pikeman marked 87 is a German is weak at best, it come from a Dutch source and the Pluderhose had falled out of use by the date in question, indeed I'm wondering if the original image shows pluderhose at all.

The 1585-1600 period is a diffcult one as it is the period when the last form of true Landsknecht dress disappeared and soldiers took on clothes in more modest fashions that were similar to those worn by the Dutch and Spanish. To make matters worse there is a lack of usefull images the number of artists depicting German soldiers became very few indeed. The best artwork that does exists is not available online but shows a mixture of men in Pluderhose alongside men who have adopted the plainer style seen on Heath's images number 88-90.

The disapperance of Landsknecht dress was to a large extent due to econimic factors combined with changes in the German military system itself. Landsknecht pay was fixed but inflation had eroded the purchasing power of even the doublepay men when you compare it with the 1520's.

It is a hard period to model properly, it may well be easier to rely on the plentifull images from the 1570's and simply assume that the Germans are clinging to their old style of dress until the very end. After all if one wants to model the apperance of German infantry in the last decade of the 16th Century one may as well use Spanish or Dutch figures and were is the fun in that ?

The armoured Reiter (79) is rather atypical with such extensive armour and may well be a misinterpretation of the Hogenberg print of the battle of Heiligerlee. (The image is not very detailed at all and Hogenberg may well have been trying to show the Trabharnisch.) Typical armour would be the Trabharnisch which by the 1580's was changing apperance as the Tapulbrust was replaced by Ganzbauch style of breastplate. (Essentialy the German form of the Peascod style but a bit diffrent in shape).

The (almost) unarmoured Reiter is based on print by Jost Amman, for unknown reasons Heath has made some changes, the pistol holsters as disappeared and the Reiters doublet has been changed into an unusal style of coat with a pleated lower edge that is not found in the original. (While that style is historical it is out of date with the rest of the figure. By the 1580's the hat would probably have changed in shape.

Oh dear!

"It is a hard period to model properly, it may well be easier to rely on the plentifull images from the 1570's and simply assume that the Germans are clinging to their old style of dress until the very end. After all if one wants to model the apperance of German infantry in the last decade of the 16th Century one may as well use Spanish or Dutch figures and were is the fun in that ?"

I concur, that's the approach I had been considering.

Looking forward to this range being released. Have put some money aside ready for them.

The best artwork that does exists is not available online but shows a mixture of men in Pluderhose alongside men who have adopted the plainer style seen on Heath's images number 88-90.

I'd rather not pretend that soldiers in this late period were dressed as those in the earlier period, so if the Germans partly wore Pluderhosen but where otherwise in the plainer style, does it make more sense to simply take Spanish (or was it Dutch?) figures and mod them to give them Pluderhosen? Would hats/helmets also be the same?

Typical armour would be the Trabharnisch which by the 1580's was changing apperance as the Tapulbrust was replaced by Ganzbauch style of breastplate. (Essentialy the German form of the Peascod style but a bit diffrent in shape).

I'm afraid you lost me there! Are there any representations of those styles we can refer to? You mean like these chaps except without the long gun?

I'd rather not pretend that soldiers in this late period were dressed as those in the earlier period, so if the Germans partly wore Pluderhosen but where otherwise in the plainer style, does it make more sense to simply take Spanish (or was it Dutch?) figures and mod them to give them Pluderhosen? Would hats/helmets also be the same?

Not that simple I'm afraid since Pluderhose were worn with a diffrent style of doublet while the trousers adopted by the Germans tended to be rather baggy to begin with before changing in shape.

The problem is that during the 15 years in question you have at least 3-4 diffrent fashions in use among the Germans alone and some of them being used at the same time.

Hard to explain without good images but I'll try to put together an attempt at an explaination during the weekend.

Will cover the armour as well, much easier than the clothing since I have a ton of armour photographs.

That's great, thanks -- could you email to me and clib?

I am happy to have purpose-made Germans sculpted -- the idea of modding them was only in response to the idea that the Germans were moving toward more "typical" and less flamboyant dress.

Hi Khursan
I cannot see these are you site yet do you have any idea when they might be up on your site.

William

The sculpts are currently in transit to Khurasan HQ, so they might be a while in being available.

Daniel, looking at the FoGR list for this period (that being arguably the most popular Renaissance rules set at the moment) I note there are no troops called Corazas and only a handful of troops called "Reiters or herreruelos."

The cavalry are predominately the lancers (you have to have some heavily armoured, with 3/4 or full plate and some with less armour, cuirass or similar) and arquebusiers. That might end up translating to essentially the same thing, however, except I think our lancers are all in 3/4 or full plate.

The Corazas are there, FOG-R lables them "Guardias Viejas" and "Burgundian Men-At-Arms", the later is fairly odd considering that the Bande's d'Ordonnance which supplied most of the Corazas were raised in the Netherlands and "Flemish"/"Walloon" rather than "Burgundian". (In Spanish documents the last term is only used for troops raised in the France Comte)

FOG-R troop numbers seem to be more related to the old DBR army lists than to the historical number of troops when you compare the content of the army list with historical documents. Of course it is not exacetly easy to write a list which covers both the army of the St. Quentin campaign as well as the 80 years War.

Hi Daniel, thanks for that -- unfortunately the two types you've just mentioned are both lancers in the list, so they don't correspond to the Coraza pistoliers you've described.

Ah, checked the list again and they don't get upgraded to pistoliers until after 1609 which is the end of the list. And no changes for the Reiters either. The problem of creating a list which covers 50 years worth of changes.

Were they converted to pistoliers before that though, I mean is the list wrong?

Yes and no, at a glance the Bandes d'ordonance were still organised into 'lances'.But by 1600 the Lance was 1/3 gendarmes, 1/3 corazas/cuirassiers and 1/3 unarmoured mtd arquebusiers. And in reality cuirassiers outnumbered the lancers. Then you have the companies of cuirassiers that began to appear after the army of Flanders had campaigned in France in the 1590s and had gained experience facing French cuirassiers. Additional cuirassiers were picked upxfrom the disbanded armies of the French Catholic Leauge and the Lorrainers

Looking at the date 1600 as more of an end date than a beginning, it sounds like the adoption of the pistol by the heaviest cavalry was at the very end of the period?