"Is there a market for original imagi-nation miniatures?" Topic

While I realize most imagi-nations are based on real world patterns and military structures, is there a potential for miniatures designed specifically to represent truly original uniforms and fictitious soldiers from the period?

I am not sure what such a range would look like, but I assume that it would likely take shape around a conflict with at least two distinct factions. New uniform cuts or combinations of equipment could be put together to make some pretty cool miniatures.

There are quite a few examples of this already in use in several games. Privateer Press has put a lot of tricorn chic into its Cygnar faction for Warmachine. Video games like Fable and Assassin's Creed have also had a bit of fun with the period too.

So, where would the line be drawn before it tipped into the realm of fantasy?

-Eli

what I would really like to see is player characters

Player characters?

Abdul Abulbul Amir type of figure would be nice, too!

Sure there's a market for them.

Probably not a profitable one, though.
-Kle.

I think there is definitely room for a range of character and personality figures , rank-and-file can just be made up from existing ranges.

I can't see there being much of a market for rank-and-file figures unless there is some sort of movie/book/game tie-in. I agree with the others, personality figures would be the way to go. There also seems to be a market for female figures in uniform.

Mounted and dismounted figures of General HGW from Sinclair's illustrations in Little Wars – surely THE ImagiNation general par excellence?

Dear Thread

Oh I think there is definitely a market for them, and I for one would be willing to drop thousands for them, but… and this is a big but… they would have to be EXCEPTIONAL! What I mean as exceptional is this.

Where they have to be exceptional is in detail, but moreso in looks! History will let you get away with murder because Prussian Musketeers may look awful in a particular casting but you gotta have em , so you may not like the look of Prussian Muskeeers, but you have to have them. Since Imagi-Nation figures would not represent any specific country (unless you were for example going to have specific figures for each Imagi-Nation Army in which case you would soon be into the absurdity of Osprey books for them which would be pure madness) you would have to make the figures of these ranges look very good on their own! That is, you would be depending on the
aesthetic sensibilities of the individual players to buy this figure which looks like a French Infantryman with a French Dragoon helmet on it, or that figure which looks like a British Grenadier (with the characteristcall "notched cuff" with an Austrian 1809 helmet on his head.

To show how far this "taste" for the "look" can go, I am presently converting figures for my Imagi-Nation Army of Gulagia (with its capital at Gullagin's Island) which is modeleld on Russia, by taking a Hinchcliffe 17th Century Polish Winged Hussar, and converting the helmet to add those wings of the Russian Chevalier Guard of the War of the Polish Succession, and putting one of those sort of long banners (like the Japanese) in between the two wings on the back. I was going to put false wings on the horses to make them look like Pegasi but it would take up too much space on the stand and decided it would look silly.

One of the draws of the 18th century for Imagi-Nations is the similarity of uniforms and the ease of simply switching heads or even just colors of uniforms. (The Princess Army is mostly in the infantry made up of Surens 30mm figures of the Garde Francaise but in pink coats. The problem with more recognizeable uniforms in say the Napoleonic period is that they are-- well-- more recognizeable.

As for generals and courtiers that would be an excellent venue for "Imagi-Nation" lines, but again, if we had these in historical stuff we could use that, and we don't have them in historical stuff because there are few people who would buy them. YES, I would spend $500 USD for a complete set of figures for Maria Theresia at a review surrounded by her generals and her children, and lacky's servents, coaches, footmen etc. amounting to say 50 figures, but I'm probably the only person in the world that would.

They would also have to be "heroic 28mm" to 33mm otherwise you just couldn't see "he look.

As for the Lace Wars.

Male units? I doubt it. 18th C. uniforms were 'generic' enough (at least from viewing distance during a table-top game, and with a little 'good will'). Most creators of Imagi-Nations are content with painting historical minis in colors patterns of their design. 'Emperor vs Elector' emperor-elector.blogspot.fr member "David"'s Not by appointment blog nba-sywtemplates.blogspot.fr was created to offer SYW uniforms templates that builders of fictional armies can use to try their creativity in unhistorical colors combinations.

What could find a market would be separate heads with various period headgears for conversions (less easy than when the body is sculpted and cast for this purpose, without a head but with the inserting cavity; but nevertheless…).
Mirlitons to convert ordinary infantrymen in the like of the Chasseurs de Fischer and Volontaires de Lamorlière, or cavalrymen in Chasseurs à cheval of a kind;
busbies to create original 'light troops' (with a bird's wing for officers?);
tricornes to convert Mexican 'leather dragoons' into 18th C. jinetes, Napoleonic Spanish guerilleros into alternative miquelets / fusiliers de montagne, Napoleonic Tyroleans into specilaist bergjäger…;
fatigue caps, again to turn normal troops into light or 'native' ones link
'Catholic' grenadier bearskins and 'Protestant' mitres for new combinations with bodies ('Prussian' uniforms were notably skimpy);
light helmets such as De Saxe's pattern link (also used by the dragoons of Lamorlière and by the Volontaires Etrangers de Clermont-Prince) or the earliest British light troops pattern;
turbans as with the 1st uniform of the Bosniaken: ('turqueries' were fashionable, so turbans can be given to trumpeters, for instance) to convert some 18th C. uhlans or late Renaissance Croats or Napoleonic Mamluks into 18th C. turcopoles, or to give a 18th C. 'look' to 19th C. Greeks / Bashi-Bozuks…

The IS a short range of soldiers in unhistorical 18th C. uniforms with a movie tie-in: Black Scorpion 'NOT Pirates of the Caribbean' marines. Precisely because of their 'originality' DAF used them for his fictional 'Milady de Winter's Black Legion'.

Female soldiers are more likely to find a market: many Imagi-Native rulers would like to add a 'Maiden Guard' to their army (in the 'War Game Companion' C.S. Grant suggests that P. Young may have built one, so there is a respectable precedent!). The so hard-to-obtain Eureka 'Sandras' are sought by many; re. also the rather unexpected
success of the Hinterland Belle Epoque 'Hussarettes'. The Eureka 100Club 'Female Imagination infantry' and 'cavalry' link have reached the 100+ mark. The challenge is to have a sculptor skilled enough to create minis of the modern standard of quality (Minden e.g.) [though they could be slightly smaller, say 1/60, women are on the average more petite than men] AND to pay homage to female beauty Kev 'Hasslefree' White level for instance.

Characters: what types could be at the same time interesting and original enough? For males historical ranges (including the FIW 'armed settlers', of Galloping Major for instance, and 'pirates') already offer a wide choice. What is missing is 'fighting civilian women' other than pirettes: either in 'commoner'(already a full 'colonists', still) and 'upper-class' garb -think Minden 'lady riding side-saddle', but armed.

More than for armies and large battles such characters would be precious for 'adventure' games à la 'Brotherhood of the Wolf' or Chaos in Carpathia / Empire of the Dead / In Her Majesty's Name set in the 18th C. link . link . link
Examples: link . link

It would appear that such an endeavor would most likely fall short of being worth the effort and expense. I asked the question with that conclusion in mind and withheld additional comment until after I had seen what others had to say.

To further qualify the statement…

1) these sorts of project are mostly tied into hypothetical representation of existing norms of the period.

2) the overall market for such things would be small

3) imagi-nation limitations and parameters are far too subjective to assume any sort of consensus appeal.

One man's treasure could easily end up another's trash in a project of this sort.

-Eli

For male troops I agree: any Imagi-Nary wargamer wishing (dreaming, if not a skilled converter) to field troops slightly differing from historical miniatures has his own very personal idea of what to obtain.

Separate heads: such ranges do exist in VSF and SF, and in addition may allow to have historical troops not readily available. Then, for tricornes the Wargames Factory WSS plastics are a relatively inexpensive source.

Female troops: probably the less hazardous possibility. Given that very 'specialized' minis such as several Eureka ranges and Victoria Lamb's Monty Python Spanish Inquisition do exist, why not?

Characters: could be added to existing 'pirates' or 'highwaymen' ranges; though ideally each one would be available on foot and mounted (as for the 'D&D adventurers' of old), and it's probably too much to hope for.

I think that the line would have to be part of a greater "project" to sell.
Let's say, a "Warhammer Lace" game, with fantasy elements.
The concept of Flintloque appealed to me, the figures did not.
If some big budget line of 18th Century fantasy miniatures, complete with all those horrible "uniforms" from the movies (Tavington's Green Dragoons?) were released, it could have 4 or more "Fantasy Human" nations, in tricorne, busby, mirleton, etc.

The key is that the mass market game system, with dedicated miniatures, would supply another bunch of miniatures for those with no interest in the game itself. How many people buy Battlefront miniatures with no desire at all to play Flames of War?

Even better would be if this line had separate heads. (Plastics is a given.) What if the Perry Volunteers of Ireland were plastic, and you could give them a plastic busby or tricorne?

Basically, you need a well marketed mass market game because the market for such figures interested in 18th C Imaginations is small.
The problem will be that SOME (and you know who you are) will shrink back in horror at the unwashed getting interested. You can see the same horror at teenagers playing ("pretending") Flames of War!
I suppose another problem might be the fantasy pedantry we see with Space Marine chapters, where "Good Lord! EVERYBODY knows that the 3rd demi-battalion of the Archbishopric of Steinmetz-Frachenschlasch has lilac facings, not rose!"

Dear John the OFM

"Warhammer Lace."

O thank you so much for that image! I fell creepy-crawly allover thinking about it, like I'm about to be eaten alive by the scarabs in the Mummy movies.

I need to shower in RAID-- quickly.

Eeeeeuwwww…. as my ersatz granddaughter says.

Warhammer Lace? I shudder wondering, fearing, doubting, dreaming dreams no mortal ever dared to dream before YouTube link Imagine the Ostrichian Imperial Guard: 36mm tall Mister Universes in vaguely 18th C. uniforms (but with huge metal shoulder pads) carrying Nock guns of 54mm size… To be 'compulsorily' decorated with ©™® paints using ©™® brushes because, you know, 'it's a complete hobby'…

This one, on the other hand, if sculpted by a very skilled artist:

As for a licensed range there is the 'Monster Blood Tattoo' series set in a semi-18th C. 'Half-Continent' link : could provide useful figurines if D. M. Cornish agree (for marketing purposes) to have them with 'real' tricornes rather than the silly contraptions of his design.

( link )

Empire: Total War has some good-looking unhistorical uniforms, but since the producers claim to aim at 'historicity' they would not endorse an 'imagi-native' range.

Silly contraptions? Really?

Cornish's work takes place in a fictional world and I find his world's headgear no more silly than any of the real world designs we play with.

Cornish actually illustrates the core thoughts of my initial question quite well. His characters effectively demonstrate where one can go with subtle tweaking to historical patterns. It is stuff like this and the Fable games, alomg with a few others that got me thinking on the topic.

Really it comes down to can imagi-nations go beyond repurposing, repainting and reorganizing?

-Eli

A matter of choice: if for some reason you like wargaming the 'Lace Wars' then you can't depart too much from 'historicity', otherwise enjoyable as your setting may be it would no longer be an echo of 'our' 18th C.

The problem is the same as with the 'Victorian Science Fiction' vs 'Steampunk' controversy. The former claims to respect Victorian mentalities, gender roles, prejudices, values… and thus fashion. Thus it corresponds (theoretically) to Verne's novels: a lone (disturbed) genius managed to build the Albatross or the Nautilus and challenges the 'historical' society of his time. Steampunk corresponds rather to the works of Robida: 'futuristic' technologies invaded and changed everybody's everyday life, thus mentalities, gender roles, prejudices, values… and thus fashion are no longer those of historical Victorian times.

If the 'Lacepunk' Puckle guns, steamtanks and dirigible balloons you field are more than rare unreliable prototypes you are playing VSF with minis in tricornes, no longer the 'Lace Wars'. The same if characters with great 'psychic' powers have a significant impact on the battlefield.
Symmetrically you can play an 'historically accurate' re-fight of Fontenoy with minis in glamorous landsknecht costumes, but…

As for the hats worn in the half-continent I dislike them because they cannot be made from fabric, only from rigid card. As if the inhabitants of a mysterious 7th continent, having discovered images of 18th C. Western Europe, decided to copy its fashion without having any material example at their disposal. Not that I dislike the idea (actually that's exactly how I integrate the Half-Continent' in a global alternate 18th C. Earth), but it would be a missed opportunity to have a whole range of minis with great potential but requiring headswapping to be of use in the army of a 'traditional' Imagi-Nation.

Given the setting, the hats are likely one of their simplest feats of engineering

Another as I consider what you say and realize you encourage me to have Mammoths in Alcovia.

-Eli

To be clear I never wrote -or thought- than the pseudo-tricornes of the Half-Continent are more silly than the flowerpots, frying pans and stovepipes that various countries used as military hats during the Napoleonic era; far from that. It's only the idea of a possible line of minis full of potential but not directly useable that I dislike. But, given that the very existence of a range of 'Monster Blood Tattoo' licensed minis is so unlikely, anyway….

Hats grown by bioengineering, I suppose? The emphasis on 'advanced' applied biology rather than physics is the distinguishing feature of MBT as science fiction.

Another video game using quasi-18th C. imagery is Castlevania, at least the Rondo of Blood / Symphony of the Night episodes.

Several characters ould make a few useful minis in 28-30mm.

About Assassin's Creed, a Wizkids / Heroclix Aveline de Grandpré would be precious as 18th C. female adventurer.

Even historically-minded DAF was at a time toying with the idea of adding a war balloon to the army of Hesse -Seewald TMP link . TMP link (while some were even more 'audacious' and dreamed of an experimental steam tank TMP link . TMP link or at least self-propelled gun link . link ). While another very 'serious' wargamer mentioned the possibility (not yet realized afaik) of 'spicing' a Prussian army with a few zamberek camels (a gift of the Sublime Porte as a token of common enmity to Austria) or a Russian one with a pair of jingal elephants (a gift of the Shah as a token of common enmity to the Ottomans). Alcovia being by nature far more 'furry' than Prussia and post-Peter the Great Russia wooly mammoths would be perfectly 'in character'.
On the other hand I'm afraid that war wagons, so efficient against steppe nomads, would be sitting ducks if facing a 'modern' army and its artillery.

Years ago TMP member Kennerknecht Scott was planning a post-Nestorian 'Kingdom of the Celestial Path' founded by Prestor John and now (18th C.) launching a Crusade to 'enlighten' the West. Its army, like that of Ghengis Khan, combining 'core' troops from the homeland (at the junction of Kashmir, Kara Khitai and Tibet) with contingents from all populations of the 'Yellow Empire', from Japanese to Bashkirs. Geographically Alcovia would be one of the first to be invaded….
A proposed example of 'Reconnaisance in force' was:
- Princess Xena's Most Loyal Royal Hunting Dragoon Guides
- A squadron of Japanese ashigaru dragoons (converted 1/72nd Viet Kong and Samurai cavalry) with AK47's:Atebeg Karabiner 1747 muketoons
- Mongol light cavalry squadron
- a warbands of Reckless Endeavors with bow / Xbows (specialists of night attacks)
- two 4pdr 'galloper guns' for support

With regard to an 'Imagi-Native' range (though historically based, somehow) a passionate tried to launch a whole reconstruction of Maurice de Saxe's Legion as described in the 'Rêveries' strackenz.blogspot.fr

Unfortunately, for sure because of some personal catastrophe, he dropped the project, deleted his wargaming blog and disappeared from the web. I don't know who has the 'greens' now.

So, let me change tack here a bit.

What WOULD be an acceptable, even desirable set of offerings from an imagi-nations line of miniatures.

Heads and femmes have been covered, but are there any interesting uniform combinations that jump out? Any uniform types that may not have existed in force or perhaps that exist in fiction but were never done in reality?

-Eli

Dear Eli

Sure-- whatever the individual might want. When you're talking about a person's imagination the sky is the limit.

For example,

The Minnetonka Fusiliers- a "fusion" between say American Indian costume and that of the 18th century. Short Sleeved jackets cut off at the elbow, but long in the front with the "bone" breastplates on the lapels instead of lace. Breachclout perhaps with a cartridge box or spannon, and leggings. Hat is say Dragoon helmet with individual feathers up and down the crest.

Or from the Middle East-Asia

The KIatmanduandyou of Sum Dum Gai

Kaftan and breechs with a tall straight linen hat like a latter stove-pipe with a tall plume on that, with say Feathers depending down the side of the arms of a short surcoat.

The Ginzo Guards
Japanese Ashigaru conical hat, with Japanese wicker armor over a normal Western coat with large (War of the Spanish Succession cuffs, with short kilted skirts. Carries a long serrated sword… (and if you act right now you get for free…)

The Popiels Pocket Fishermen.

Tricorn with two of the corners let down, covered with fishing licenses, hooks lures. Regular 18th century jacket cut short, with an over-vest with lots of pouches, pockets and places for equipment. Wears hard leather oiled waders. Carries a Musket and a trident as a rest. Knapsack is a wire fishing creel. Carries Grenades for when the fishing is poor. Just toss one in, let the fish rise to the surface, pick out the ones you want and let the rest float away.

The Bennenjerries

A turkish troop, looks a bit like Jannisaries, but as you paint them the colors of sherberts they all have different hats, like an apple-core hat with a stem out the top for the ones you paint in red, another with a headdress that would do Carmen Miranda proud on the Orange ones, and a sort of helmet like a big lime you put on the ones you paint green. In addition, each one has a coronoa of feathers around the body (think mummers) and they all have muskets and banjo's

And of course my favorite,

The Mouseketeers.

Mickey-mouse hat with a long grey coat with tail held aloft by a wire. Long Loose linen shirt worn outside the breeches with the first name of the soldier on it. Long vest-jacket like a Zouave jacket only longer. Tight breeches and low shoes.

Now it's time to say good bye to all our family… M-I-C---

See, lots of combinations.

Indeed the number of possibilities is infinite.
60 years ago girls had card 'fashion dolls' allowing to freely combine heads, torsos and lower bodies. Maybe one day 3D printing will allow to order any combination of one head from a range of 30 with one torso from 30 and one lower body from 30.
So you could order a Schömberg helmet * a dolman + pelisse * a Highlands kilt; or a wide, feathered Landsknetch beret * a short 'Arab' zouave jacket * short Tyrolean lederhosen; or less 'exotic' combinations.
In the meantime I'm afraid only separate heads can be commercially viable.

Dear Jean Louis

That's my point in going so far into the "buffo" on the unicorms.

But one needent go so far. There is nothing more some of us would like to do than do a little military design of our own and it does not have to be so outlandish. let me give you an Example. I like very much the elegant simplicity of the Swedish uniforms of the Great Nothern War. But I don't like the Hats. If one could have a British AWI tricorn rather than the smaller flatter Swedish one of the Great Northern War, then one could make a very handsome soldier, especially if in a pose which would enliven a long line of them.

Similrly NO ONE,, absolutely NO ONE at least as I know it makes figures of the "Potemkin" style at the end of the 18th century.

But More than those, it's not so much in our favorite period, the 18th Century, but in the Napoleonic Wars where one could make some very nice uniforms, without mixing a lot.

Once again I always thought the Swedes had a verynatty uniform .

But again I have to recall soemthign you said in one of your posts that the Uniforms of the 18th century seemed far more comfortable to wear than those of the 19th.

I've always thought that if you dropped a Nappy uniform into the the 18th century and nobody knew what it was, they really wouldn't blink or know any wiser. In many ways they seem like a lot just a new development on the same themes. New hats, new lines but still all about the brass, hats, ribbons and buckles.

-Eli

I disagree, at least for 'mainstream' Napoleonic uniforms. They resulted from evolutions perceptible soon after the SYW and already blatant by the time of the AWI. 'Evolution' implies some passing of time, so early 19th C. uniforms *cannot* be contemporary with their ancestors, in the same way as tricornes and justaucorps cannot be contemporary with the slouched hats and doublets of the 3 Musketeers.
- Skimpier uniforms,
- half-gaiters instead of full ones, then trousers worn over the breeches,
- disappearance of lace, first on the tricorne,
- disappearance of the tricorne, *THE* characteristic hat of the 18th C.
- appearance of peaks and later neck pieces, and not only on helmets: peaks, at first removable appeared on (Schömberg) helmets and on mirlitons (turning them into shakos) at the end of the 18th C. Compare de Saxe's original helmet link with its direct derivative the French dragoon helmet of 1800
link
- development of épaulettes, from barely fringed shoulder pad during the 'Lace Wars' link to monstrous pieces by Napoleonic times. Unfortunately such Napoleonic epaulettes spoil some so-called 'pirates' minis (Black Scorpion, with sometimes a Napoleonic bicorne, good for Lafitte and his buccaneers), and Japanese designers generously give them to 18th C. characters in their anime set in 'Lace Wars' Europe ('Chevalier d'Eon', 'Lady Oscar'), spoiling costumes often materialized in cosplay which could otherwise be pleasant 'alt-18th C.' designs:

On the other hand 'exotic', 'local' Napoleonic uniforms, such as those of the Greek in British service, would indeed pass unnoticed in an 'alternate 18th C.' setting; the same for the Bashkirs, Kalmucks &c… who harassed the Grande Armée druring the retreat of Russia.
Among my pet ideas, soldiers of the Régiment des Dromadaires in full uniform, if converted to ride horses

would make great 18th C. Turcopoles.

Also some details of military hats evolved during the late 18th – early 19th C. and 'tag' a figurine to a given period.
- plume and cockade were on the side during the 18th C., passed to the middle of the front in the early 19th C.;

- plumes if any (normally none on tricorne) were short in the 18th C.: even those existing as part of 'exotic' uniforms (Grassin, Uhlans de Saxe) were very modest as compared to Napoleonic ones (and they kept increasing in size after the Napoleonic times, so are typical of the 19th C.); the green plume on the tricorne of Cumberland's dragoons was resented as an 'anomaly' and disappeared in 1748.
Such oversized plumes 'contaminated' even 'exotic' uniforms, e.g. that of the 'Mamluks'

Without such plume the costume is far more 'a-temporal' and thus, among others, '18th C.' compatible

Then I recognize that with minor conversions, specially of the hat / helmet (peak, plume, neck guard…), *some* Napoleonic minis could not look too 'out of place' in an 'alternate 18th C.' army.