"Rating Russia and Ukraine for FOW Modern." Topic

As far as I know, most of the Russian army is still conscripts. I also have no reason to believe that the Ukrainians are any less trained or motivated.
What the Ukrainians are is grossly outnumbered.

Depends which units – Ukraine does have an army with some experience…

link

"61st Separate Mechanized Battalion was formed. The Battalion was in Iraq from February to September 2004 as a unit of the 6th Mechanized Brigade (Ukraine). 104 soldiers from the brigade have taken part in UN peacekeeping missions to Lebanon, Liberia, Sierra Leone, Former Yugoslavia"

Never underestimate the driven spirit that comes from defending your home territory either, which could raise the Ukrainian level.

(Shh, and with the proposal today of a 28% cut in spending for a Pentagon program that supports modernizing the military of Ukraine and other former Soviet Union republics, we can sell you some old M1A1s to add to the Ukrainian side)

Yeah, given the propensity for using the same equipment, blue on blue would be a pretty easy problem to forsee.

Can't afford to modernize our own military, without gutting it, but can do so for other foreign countries?????

Something is rotten in Denmark, and it isn't fish…….

Nah, kyote, they'll put bedsheets, bright tarps, colored crosses, etc. on their turrets, so it'll probably drop to a 1 in 6th chance, for attacks on ground forces by aircraft and helos.

Does (modern) Flames of War have a mechanism for blue on blue?

Where's Mike when you need him?

Don't recall, but see no reason it wouldn't be easy to add in, if desired.

My question is how to keep the ground forces and vehicles keep from shooting one another?

Do the vehicles have IFF, like American ones do?

I saw an image on TV the other day of some troops in Ukraine, or Crimea with colored bands around their biceps. No doubt, that might be a little difficult to see in many situations, especially in limited light, dirt/mud, etc.

It would depend on the units too Kyote. VSV troops might be Confident Veterans or at least Trained. There are probably some units out there in each army that are Trained. Russian regulars might be Confident Trained too.

Since Russkies are invading, I'd say they have (or will) get to pick which troops they send in, therefore the Russians should be at least confident trained, while the Ukrainians should probably be conscripts. Unless it is a Ukrainian spoiling attack, then both sides confident trained.

Rob

The Russians can field a couple of mechanized brigades that are actually pretty close to a Western standard, whatever that would be in terms of FOW, also some paratrooper units. They've invested pretty seriously in them since Georgia and they're also volunteer, regular units.

The Ukrainian units are actually in much worse shape than the Russians, despite what it might look like cosmetically. They've had very, very little actual training due to fuel shortages and ammo shortages. Their vehicles are also mostly a maintenance disaster, and they're at least a generation older.

Russia's biggest problem is that they don't have many units that are up to the standard they would like, the second line units would have to come in at some point (those are still better than the Ukraine units -- their vehicles work, they have fuel and ammo, and they actually have fired practice rounds and drilled).

In a stand up fight of the Russian's choosing they will win. They're just more capable than Ukraine, they can actually mass at a point of attack, penetrate a defensive position and then have the mechanized units to exploit it. They also will have total air dominance.

What they don't have is a lot of depth. Week one goes to the Russians. Week two there might actually be some parity between the two sides due to attrition on the Russian side bringing them down to the level Ukraine (they don't have spares or deep reserves). They can't sustain a long war and they really can't deal with an insurgency if they try to occupy Ukraine. There are an awful lot of armed Ukrainians who can and will fight. The Russians can win every battle but I don't think they could pacify the region (which is why I don't think Putin will try).

Let's not turn this thread into a could-would-might thread. Keep it to FoW Modern relevant.

Yea, about the only way the Ukrainians have a decent chance is to:

1. counterattack where the Russians aren't, say in cross-border raids of their own choosing to embarrass Putin, and put pressure on him;
2. use hit and run raids, wherever possible, on lines of supply – rail lines, roadways, naval and cargo vessels, and airports – attacks on those, and also on aircraft landing and taking off using MANPAD SAMs;
3. and lie low, fighting a guerrilla war against him, for as long as it takes. That worked for the more poorly armed Aghans, so should work for the better equipped Ukrainians too.

So, while FoW would work, I think Ambush Alley would be better.

Let's not forget that Battlefront uses "conscript" in a more general way than the strict definition. Basically it means "easy to hit and not skilled". It reflects their level of training more than anything else.
So, unless you have actually PLAYED Flames of War, it would not be appropriate to assign FoW grades.

Me neither.

John, I wish to point out that there may be those of us who HAVE actually played FoW (several times I suspect, in many cases), but don't recall their terminology.

I actually have played AA/FoF and have been looking to run a topical scenario at a local convention. I was actually thinking of doing a Benghazi scenario until that got all politicized. Now you've got me thinking of doing a Ukraine vs. Russian FoF/AA mini-campaign.

First scenario would be Ukraine regulars fighting a holding action against Russian regulars. Next scenario would be Ukrainian irregulars fighting urban guerilla style against the Russian occupiers. Hm. The russians would be d8 quality, d8 morale. The Ukranians would be d6 quality, perhaps d8 morale as well as they're fighting for their homeland.

There seems to be some interest in learning how to play Force on Force. If anyone is in Stratford Ontario's Hot Lead convention this weekend, I'm doing a FoF game Sunday morning.
Beginners are welcome.

Mike