"XI Corps "German Regiments"" Topic

Which Union XI Corps (1862) units were listed as "German Regiments?" I have a hankering to re-fight Stonewall's flanking movement, but run into a semi coherent defense. Has anyone ever fought that what-if?

Hooker had ordered Howard to build a prepared defensive position with works in case the Rebs attacked the army's right flank. Hooker also ordered the 1st Corps to redeploy on the extreme right to reinforce it. Hooker did not trust Howard's Corps and officers. At about 10 AM Hooker rode over to see how Howard was getting along and discovered NOTHING had been done. He was livid. Later when Barlow was ordered to send his brigade to Fairfield, for no good reason, Howard went with Barlow leaving the 11th Corps without leadership in his absence. Reynolds' 1st Corps got somewhat lost and involved in needless delays. _IF_ things had worked out as planned you would have had 2 Corps waiting for Jackson and Reynolds would have had command of both Corps. You should read a book about the battle and it will fill in many of the blanks. Pick up Sears' book about Chancellorsville.

It's always fun when doing a first person impression to tell folks that Germans will never make good soldiers (unlike us Irish!)

I always thought that the XI Corps got an underserved reputation. There was nothing wrong with the soldiers, many German regiments fought with distinction, but they were subject to appalling leadership.

I'm not sure a "what if" scenario with two entrenched Union corps facing Jackson would be much fun for the Confederate player.

I was thinking something along the lines of some advanced warning via skirmishers/pickets thrown out not fully entrenched.

I was reading "Chancellorsville and the Germans: Nativism, Ethnicity, and Civil War Memory" by Christian B. Keller and was trying to remove the stigma and perceptual bias. It all comes down to leadership. Were they prepared? No, ergo a failure in leadership.

Hi,

In gettysburg is behind the cemitery is the german area… It is the backside were you look onto culps hill. There you have all the german units. Take a look at the regimental memorials in the area and you have all the germans of the 11. Corps. I took pictures last year of all german units memorial of gettyburg and i could write them down for you if you want…. You have serval pure german regiments and also regiments recruited from people from germany or austria like the garibaldi guards.

My favorite is by far the 54th NY hirams black rifles aka schwarze jäger with black uniform and skull and bones flag….

The great great great grand farther of the active king of the netherlands fought also on the union side as a german at gettysburg…

Greetings and have fun…..

Rudi,

Did the 54th NY "schwarze jager" wear a black uniform in the field? If so was it black coat and trousers as well as kepi? Was the flag black with just the skull and crossbones? And do you have any illustrations of either? I have never heard of such a unit and find this very interesting.

Thanks in Advance,

John

It does sound very interesting, and something id like to paint up on the gaming table

The 54th NY was mustered in in October 1861 and did, indeed, wear black and silver uniforms and carry a black flag with a skull and crossbones. Alas, neither the flag nor the uniforms lasted long. By the time they fought in the Valley in 1862 they were uniformed like the rest of the army. The flag was not officially sanctioned and they had to give that up, too.

Still, it would be cool to paint them in their original glory.

Rudi,
Other than the 54th,which regiments/brigades were earmarked as "German"? I can pick out the Germanic commanding officers and generals.

The Nafziger Collection of Orders of Battle's link below?

PDF link

Here is a start. Alas, it is not complete, for example, the 1st Texas Cavalry (US) was primarily German but never received the label.

link

Germans will never make good soldiers (unlike us Irish!)

Two edges to that particular sword. Some once said to me its because we are too dumb to run away! :o)

One of the many knocks against the Germans in the Keller book characterized the recent wave of German immigrants as running from the fighting in Europe, correlating too little of no martial spirit.

I think that covers it very well….

I must look it up but on PA 2xx regiment is missing, which is called the "deutsches Feldregiment". For the rest it really looks complete.

Why the germans fought so badly on american soil is a very very good question… No one could find a good answer about this…. It could be that the germans you liked a militaristic way of life just stayed in europe were this was very "in"?

Who knows???

I think most of it was leadership. I don't think the Germans in the 32nd Indiana or the 9th Ohio lacked any martial spirit. And look at August Willich. Certainly a German general with plenty of fight, and knew how to do it well.

My great grandfather came to the states following the wars of unification. A Bavarian, he landed in New York in 1872 and renounced the Emperor in 1888. He fought in the wars, but didn't like the Prussians. His wife listed Austria as his birthplace on his death certificate in 1915. So I understand some of the drive to leave the homeland. Keller claims the disparate German groups unified into a German community to support the war effort until the flap resulting from Chancellorsville.

You have to stop and consider how immigrants are considered in any country.

They are always untrustworthy, shifty characters who are only looking out for themselves. So in this instance they were bound to run for it and then turn out to be equally as unreliable at Gettysburg.

As usual, I agree with Cleburne1863 – Leadership!

Also, remember that many of the units in the Eleventh Corps, transferred to the West and became part of the Twentieth Corps in March 1864 (I believe one of its two-brigade divisions went to South Carolina soon after Gettysburg). Now I don't know their fates regiment by regiment, but the Twentieth Corps, in my own opinion, bore the lion's share of the fighting in the Army of the Cumberland during the Atlanta Campaign. Dug Gap, Resaca, New Hope Church, Gilgal Church, Kolb Farm, Peachtree Creek. I think the men in the former Eleventh Corps did a fabulous job in the newer Twentieth. Why? Leadership. Joseph Hooker.

Back during the Articles of Confederation, a German delegate named Mulenberg (university in Allentown, PA bears his name) cast the deciding vote to make English the official language of the United States. At the time, fully 60% of US citizens and residents were of German descent.

Thus, probably every unit in the ACW contained men of German ancestry.

Probably 40% of our citizens today can claim German ancestry. Are we the US largest minority?

GdeP

Back during the Articles of Confederation, a German delegate named Mulenberg (university in Allentown, PA bears his name) cast the deciding vote to make English the official language of the United States.

That's an old myth, I'm afraid. From the early Republic, not the Articles of Confederation period:

link

At the time, fully 60% of US citizens and residents were of German descent.

No, nowhere near that number at the time.

There had been @ 100,000 German immigrants to the colonies prior to American independence, or about 2.5% of the population. The highest estimate I've ever seen, based on names in the 1790 census, is 9% of Americans having direct descent from German immigrants.

The huge majority of those came to Pennsylvania, with Maryland in second place. Pennsylvania's state legislature is the only one I'm aware of, that ever considered a bill adopting German-language signage and "official" use of German as a second language, but that bill was defeated.

There are a number of books about this (German immigration to the early US). Some recent authors include: Willy-Paul Adams, Farley Grubb, Aaron Fogelmann, Hans-Jürgen Grabbe, and if I may humbly suggest: myself.

The 41st NY (the de Kalb Regiment), 1st Bde, 1st Div, XI Corps was a depicted as a Zouave regiment by knotel. My MAA – 177 does not include that regt in its list of zouaves. Anybody else paint them as such?
link

I suspect a lot of the problem with the Germans regiments come from Chancellorsville. Howard suffered an humiliation at that battle then again at Gettysburg.

"We fights mitt Sigel" becomes "We runs mitt Howard"

They did prove themselves at Chattanooga.