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"Location for Welsh, Viking and Anglo-Dane conflict?" Topic


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Comments or corrections?

Queen Catherine07 Mar 2014 10:41 a.m. PST

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Huscarle Supporting Member of TMP07 Mar 2014 10:51 a.m. PST

Perhaps the Border region of England/Scotland. The Strathclyde Welsh, the Anglo-Saxon & Vikings in the North of England. You can also add the Irish & Dublin Vikings into the mix too grin
link
link

MajorB07 Mar 2014 10:52 a.m. PST

I was thinking about the greater Liverpool area might include the West Saxon kingdom,

Wessex didn't extend anywhere near as far North as Liverpool!
This map of 9th century England might help you:

picture

JimDuncanUK07 Mar 2014 10:54 a.m. PST

You'll get lots of campaign information in Dux Britanniarum.

link

There is a Raiders supplement forthcoming which will add to the above.

MajorB07 Mar 2014 11:01 a.m. PST

The Strathclyde Welsh

The only connection that the Kingdom of Strathclyde had with Wales appears to be a similar language. Not surpring since both were originally Brythonic peoples. Strathclyde was not "Welsh" in the accepted sense.

Prince Rupert of the Rhine07 Mar 2014 11:04 a.m. PST

Mercia circa 900AD welsh in the west, Danes in the North and East Saxons in the south.

MajorB07 Mar 2014 11:09 a.m. PST

Mercia circa 900AD welsh in the west, Danes in the North and East Saxons in the south.

Um, I think you mean West Saxons in the south? Good suggestion though.

Queen Catherine07 Mar 2014 11:14 a.m. PST

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Happy Little Trees07 Mar 2014 11:25 a.m. PST

Most of what I know about the era comes from link

Royston Papworth07 Mar 2014 11:46 a.m. PST

I've always wondered where the Danelaw reaches the Thames, ie, how much or how little of that corner of Essex is in the Saxon camp… I suppose I'll never really know…

steamingdave4707 Mar 2014 12:20 p.m. PST

Major Bumsore- I understood that "welsh" was a pejorative term used by the Saxons for the original "British" inhabitants of these islands. Essentially, it meant " foreigners", so I think it's use re inhabitants of Strathclyde may well have been a contemporary one. The "Welsh" ( or preferably Cymric?) kingdoms extended from what is now west central Scotland, through Galloway and possibly the Eastern Scottish Borders, through Cumbria (hence the modern name) and into what is now known as "Wales", (at least by the "English") or Cymru.
As Queen Catherine's collection includes "late Roman types", I am not sure that they could be opponents of "Vikings", who did not appear in Britain, until about 800AD, although no doubt there were sea raiders from north Germany and Scandinavia before this. Indeed, that is really what the early Saxons were. I think I would be tempted to set the battles anywhere between modern Llandudno and north of Glasgow. After all, it is the "Dark Ages" and imagination can be allowed to roam freely.

IagreewithSpartacus07 Mar 2014 1:24 p.m. PST

There were plenty of connections between the North British/Cymru/Welsh and their 'welsh' counterparts. The foundation myth of Gwynedd involved settlement by Cunedda and elements of the Gododdin, for example. Welsh genealogical tables include members of North British families, and vise versa. But not large pains in the posterior.

Tarleton08 Mar 2014 4:06 a.m. PST

Plenty of Viking settlements around Merseyside, on both sides of the river. Otherwise the area would have come under the control of either Elmet or Rheged.

There is also the site of the battle of Brunnaburgh(wrong spelling but no access to my books at the moment). Date is 763?

I have seen reference to Wallasey being an island then and with a viking settlement on it. The area covered by the Birkenhead docks and Bidston being marshy and open to the Mersy.

The River Alt was navigable up to Kirkby then as well. Lots of low lying ground between Crosby and Southport and inland to Maghull etc would have probably been marsh then.

Dux Bellorum are good rules that allow for various unit sizes and give a good game.

steamingdave4708 Mar 2014 5:09 a.m. PST

Brunnaburgh about 937. Elmet taken overby Northumbria around 620 and Rheged similarly a hundred years or so later- well before Vikings around.

Tarleton08 Mar 2014 5:18 a.m. PST

Awhile since I was Dark Ageing. Now the memory is just going with ageing :)

Still loads of scope around 937.

Queen Catherine08 Mar 2014 7:30 a.m. PST

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Great War Ace08 Mar 2014 9:54 a.m. PST

The Long Ships is the best in-period novel I've come across. Cornwell is cheap trash compared to Bengtsson.

If I were setting up a campaign for all three "players", I'd instigate hostilities by having a big raid come from the Danelaw, rampage across Wessex's Welsh border, and thus drag both armies into repelling them. Or, have the Welsh ally with the Vikings against the Anglo-Saxons. You could even have a split of any of the three onto both sides over some dynastic struggle, so that Vikings fight Vikings, or Welsh fight Welsh, etc….

Wombling Free08 Mar 2014 11:46 a.m. PST

For the Welsh, Saxons and Vikings, the tenth century might be best, as has been suggested. Edward the Elder campaigned against the Welsh, and both he and his son Aethelstan sought to bring the Danelaw to heel, and, as has been mentioned, Brunanburh was fought c.937. It featured the Saxon army (West Saxons and Mercians, although technically Mercia was now a part of Wessex) versus a Viking, Strathclyde Welsh and Scots army. If the battle in Egils saga is accepted as Brunanburh, which it generally is, then there were Scandinavians on both sides of the battle. That should give you plenty of scope for campaigning with your early medieval figures, although it might be just as simple to invent a nation where all your armies can fight it out between them.

Oh Bugger09 Mar 2014 6:24 a.m. PST

Some believe that the kingdom of Strathclyde incuded Cumbria at various times. Certainly the Cumbrians, Cymry, were Welsh as the English saw it and by the time of the Norman Conquest seem to have been under the auspices of the King of Scots. Plenty of scope there.

Also I seem to recall reading of a joint Cornish-Viking hosting against Wessex.

Queen Catherine09 Mar 2014 6:04 p.m. PST

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Wombling Free10 Mar 2014 5:26 a.m. PST

Also I seem to recall reading of a joint Cornish-Viking hosting against Wessex.

I don't recall the specifics, but Edward the Elder certainly fought the Cornish, beat them and sold lots of them into slavery.

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