"I'm so done with Kickstarters. " Topic

(Vent on)

Delays, non-specific updates, nifty concept art, renders, more delays, news of out next KS campaign, more delays, long list of 'not our fault' reasons for said delays, 'it's almost here!', no wait – more delays, blah, blah, blah.

None of the KS campaigns I've back have been on time. NOT ONE. I'm currently waiting items from THREE hobby related campaigns and one indie music CD.

And don't give me "Everybody knows delays are part of the KS process, you naive whiner."

Everybody but the manufacturers apparently, because they seem unable/unwilling to include that possibility in their plans. They promise everything is fine, then get all y when customers wonder where their goods are AFTER TWO + months of delays.

Oh, and KS getting hacked didn't help my confidence.

I'm done. Call me when you have actual product.

(Vent off)

.. when customers wonder where their goods are ..

I thought the essence of any backing any kickstarter (notice lower case) was that you become an investor willing to take a risk or two.

Maybe I misunderstood?

--
Martin Stephenson
The Waving Flag :: Twitter :: eBay

I invest in their concept, their business plan, accept later delivery, but am a customer when exchanging money for product. That's the essence of the campaigns: $$ now for product later.

I often wonder about the long term effects of Kickstarter on our little hobby industry. It seems to me most companies use Kickstarter as a marketing tool and not so much trying to gain capital from "investors" for growth and expansion. Which may have been Kickstarters original intent.. but I'm afraid it has strayed. Also, with the majority of kickstarters being "new" product based, one has to consider that our market is very finite and it seems to me that these companies are robbing the future to pay for the present, at reduced profit… good for the backers in the short term.. but I can't help but feel it won't be good for the companies in the long run.

Which KS campaigns are you waiting on?

Empress Chinese PLA, MERCS Myth and an Indiegogo terrain project. The music CD is coming.

Strange, I got my Empress Chinese along with the Aussies weeks ago?

As far as risks for delays go; each KS does have a "Risks" section at teh bottom fo the front page. As a good business practice the more comprehensive the discussion on risks the more assurance you as a buyer would have over their ability to deliver.

So many of the KS minis related projects source their product from China. Nothing ever comes out of China on time it seems. So, that's a known risk.

Seems a lot of people hate KS but given the amount being pledged there's a lot more that don't. I'm shoosy in which ones I grab but so far pretty satisfied.

Standing by for RAWR!, Brew Tenders(?), and Marrying Mr. Darcy (with the zombie variant). That gives me a nice mix of periods, genres, and sizes.

I am currently waiting on Relic Knights.

Last delay: Chinese New Year

Yeah, I don't blame you for being upset.

I'm 3 for 3 with KS, but I backed Reaper (who was late, but I knew they'd come through), Dwarven Forge (who was totally solid), and Wes Otis/Plate Mail Games MP3 background loops, so they were all pretty low risk.

Been waiting a year for Chaosium's "Horror on the Orient Express." The others I got on time. Sails of Glory turned out to be a really fine game! Win some, lose some….

I have backed too many… and many hit undreamed of targets, so I accept them being late.

I'm still waiting on six miniature/gaming ones… so not particularly worried. I'm taking a risk… but hey that's what I signed up for on kickstarter.

Robotech, grumble grumble.

I too found the Empress one fine though.

What I've noticed is that the perceived value of being an early backer isn't always there. Bought Ogre retail for a lot less than the ks.

The only Kickstarter I invested/bought into was the Reaper Bones project. It too was a bit late but the folks at Reaper did a fine job of keeping folks informed of progress and made sure to update on a regular basis. Now the down side, I still have a ton of Reaper Bones that have yet to see paint. I at a time in my life and in regards my hobby where I just do not need to add to the pile of unpainted stuff. Lesson learned and I have yet to back another Kickstarter although I have been tempted by many of them. If the Kickstarter is successful the merchandise will be available. Yes I might end up paying more that way but I also might end not getting too much either.

Hit a tipping point today with yet another 'it's still delayed' announcement, back to back with a 'everything was shipped out two weeks ago, don't know why you don't have yours, no we can't track your parcel' email.

No more KS for me. (Altho the person/persons who hacked all my personal info might pledge.)

Well anything from Cool Mini will be late and the customers fault to boot.

Rivet Wars showed up, looks great…no complaints here and I think the "Goodie's Bundle" is due out next month-ish.

I am still waiting on the All Quiet on the Martian Front KS I backed at the upper levels, but you know, I won't die if those non-essential models are a bit late. I'll get them and I won't be hurt one bit because I waited a little longer for them. YMMV!

Ooops, make that FOUR delayed hobby KS. I forgot Tablescapes.

*sigh* I get unexpected problems. Happens to me, to everyone.But all of them? Really?

Thank God I don't go to the horse track; apparently I can't pick winners.

Waiting on Relic Knights, Ghosts of Hefei, Maki terrain, Marrying Mr. Darcy, and I'm embarrassed to say I backed the Defiance games hard suits. If that delivers on time (they've got four days) I'll be stunned beyond words. Defiance (i.e. Tony Reidy) is arguably the most inept bunch of people the miniature game industry has ever seen.

Crossover miniatures, Acheson Creations, TableWar MegaMat, Meridian Miniatures, Ramshackle, and Mantic Deadzone were very close to on time, or even early in some cases. Mantic of course is suffering from terrible packing and scads of messed up orders because they rushed to be on time.

The real issue for me is that some KS creators keep people updated, others can't find the time to write a simple 'We're still here' message.

"others can't find the time to write a simple 'We're still here' message"

In one of my cases, the most important member of the company died several months after the Kickstarter funded. The face of the company is still around, but he is one of those who won't post updates. Probably because there aren't any.

Delays, non-specific updates, nifty concept art, renders, more delays, news of out next KS campaign, more delays, long list of 'not our fault' reasons for said delays, 'it's almost here!', no wait – more delays, blah, blah, blah.

You just need to vet the Kickstarters you buy into more carefully, and not get sucked in by the hype. What's the project creator's track record like? What's there experience in the field? Have they ever taken concept art/renders through to production before?

We've run 2 Kickstarter campaigns (Oathsworn heroes), and we've delivered both either on time or early.

Lovejoy- so that's it. Why didn't I think of that?

I invest in their concept, their business plan, accept later delivery, but am a customer when exchanging money for product.

Can't have it both ways. Investors don't usually exchange money for product (aren't they actually called rewards).

Seems to me kickstarters are just old-fashioned advance orders without the security of a standard retail transaction.

Caveat emptor!

--
Martin Stephenson
The Waving Flag :: Twitter :: eBay

Seems to me kickstarters are just old-fashioned advance orders without the security of a standard retail transaction.

It's a little more than that. If a product is wildly popular (Reaper Bones for example) then those that invested above a certain level will usually get all sorts of freebies that won't be available on the open market…at least not for free.

If a project just gets the basic funding and no more then you are right. It is nothing more than an advanced order system.

Reaper, Mantic, Krosmaster, Impudent Mortal,Aftermath Mods, and Level 9 games (Kobolds ate my Baby) came through on-time or reasonably close given the scale of the challenge.

However:
Robotech Tactics
Relic Knights
^ These two malingering projects have me strung along update to update with tiny tidbits. With the sheen of expectation worn out, I'm certain I don't care about these games by the time they'll arrive in a year or so.

Sure, the updates all give marshmallow dates on when we can expect the stuff to ship, but at this point, who cares? I understood the risks when I got in, and better late than never.

Understanding the risks isn't the same as facing the consequences when things don't go optimally, and I'm wiser for having been made to wait for these products from established companies to materialize.

I have almost all of my KS projects…

Robotech….late…we'll see how that goes.. 6 months doesnt bother me as much because of the next one.

One kickstarter I have has been funded for over 2 years, 3 years in July. One book out of several has been produced,and not even the main rulebook just a fiction anthology for the world. The physical copies owed of the fiction haven't been sent out because they are 'going to be shipped with the corebook'. Never mind the fact that you can go on Amazon and BUY the book since it came out end of January 2012! And Im sorry….a T-Shirt doesnt take that much effort to get done, I have had shirts made for clubs and such. A little effort that way and it would have been at least something to show that this isnt going to be vaporware.
Delays and excuses, left and right, and its always someone else's fault.
I spent a LOT of money on that project because I had a lot of faith in it. I WANTED it to succeed and my group was actively working on some 'radio stuff' for it. Podcast, radio play ideas, etc. Now I am the only one that keeps tabs on it and only because I want to see some kind of return on it. That project obliterated the chances of ANY project getting that much from me again.

Update: Empress arrived today. Battered and torn, but intact.

Thank you, Empress Miniatures.

47 projects back, 1 failed funding, 26 delivered. Some late, 7 are way overdue and filled with excuse after excuse, my favorite being that the maker was ill a few times. The rest are late by a sort time or still on time but not yet sent. so I am about 50%.

Indiegogo. 9 projects funded, 5 funded and delivered on-time 3 are in the process and still on time and 1 (otherworld miniatures) is 1/2 done and over a year late with lots of excuses and poor business practice.
So all in all I'll still pick and chose ones I want and take the risk.

Some of the best at delivering on their promises and on time
Egyptian Harem Miniatures
by Mike Burns. I have 2 and waiting on the 3rd great stuff.

Crossover miniature

Starship Deckplans by Ryan Wolfe: As soon as the kickstater ends he ships out the product (fantastic)

Dwarven forge: Actually delivered Before the due date(whaaaat!) great stuff and great to deal with

I learned my lesson about 'starters as I imagine many of the creators have. You have to be careful and have an intuition about these things. Do your research, too. If it sounds too good it probably is.

On the other hand I have had enough successful ones that my miniature addiction is flying high with happiness. I am on seconds, thirds whatever with some great companies. Others just plain are sad. I'm not sure whether to feel sorry for them or hate them.

In other words, its a mixed bag to me. One note though, I waited a very long time for this one KS and its the one I love the most. The stuff is excellent. So, its hard to say.
I guess if you are patient and willing to gamble a few bucks go for it. If you expect things on time and exactly how you want them, maybe its not for you.

It has long bothered me that established firms use Kickstarter to fund product development. Especially so in the boardgame and miniature games area. Established firms have other means of getting funding and getting it from funders that better understand the risks. Further, why would one want to support any established firm that is putting their own customers at risk? The recent failure of Torm Armor (of Torn Worlds [1]) is a good example of this.

In the venture capital world the funder at least gets the assets of the failed product. These assets have real value. Why don't Kickstarter funders ask for the same conditions? That is, when an established firm is looking to fund product development then the assets developed with the funding must be returned to the funders on failure. For a game product this would include the sculpts -- 3D models and "Greens" --, artwork, rules, and backstory, for example. The funders are then free to do what they want to do privately & individually with the assets or publicly & collectively.

[1] Torn Armor Kickstarter encounters a problem with Defiance Games

I hear Torn Armor is getting back on track to fulfill their orders. I dont think people will have to eat this one in the long run.

I'm pretty happy with my investments, some creators I was pretty certain off, some creators I hadn't heard of but they had launched a KS or Indiegogo previously and the rest were noobs but looked solid and worth the risk at the dollar value I was prepared to invest. Yes it is a risk, it is an investment to treat it as a shopping expedition is wrong by the crowd funding organisation, the creator and the investor.

If you don't want the risk of being an investor and want to treat crowdfunding as a shopping expedition I suggest you get out and wait till the project has been completed and buy retail.

I'm very happy with where my KS investments stand, the one's to watch out for are those that become super funded, this is a sure sign that you should expect delays. It must be overwhelming for some one who wants $ 3K to fund their project and ends up with excess of $ 100K and the investor numbers to match for example

link

The guy stated up front it had snowballed beyond his imaginings and that because of numbers things will take time, reasonable investors can see that this is the case shoppers just want their product, you have to decide up front which you are, investor or shopper?

regards
dave