Help support TMP


"My 3D Sculpting Experience" Topic


7 Posts

All members in good standing are free to post here. Opinions expressed here are solely those of the posters, and have not been cleared with nor are they endorsed by The Miniatures Page.

Please remember that some of our members are children, and act appropriately.

For more information, see the TMP FAQ.


Back to the Sculpting Message Board

Back to the Hobby Industry Message Board


Areas of Interest

General

Featured Hobby News Article


Featured Recent Link


Featured Showcase Article

Small Storage Packs from Charon

When you only need to carry 72 28mm figures (or less)...


Featured Workbench Article

Printing Scenario Maps with Poster Software

You've got a scenario map, and you need to create some hills. Is there some way to just print out the map in very large scale, so you can trace the outline of the hills you need to build? The Editor finds out...


Featured Profile Article

Report from Bayou Wars 2006

The Editor heads for Vicksburg...


Current Poll


1,865 hits since 17 Feb 2014
©1994-2024 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

solosam17 Feb 2014 3:14 a.m. PST

I've spent the last two months trying to get started with 3D printing miniatures and I thought I'd share my experience. I'll give you the bottom line up front: 3D sculpting and printing is a LOT harder than it looks. That said, I had no money and no training, so if I can do it anyone can do it. It just takes a long time, a lot of hard work, and in some cases it might be easier to just sculpt with green stuff.

First, if you are trying to get started with 3D sculpting, check out these websites for advice. Their help was extremely valuable.

link
link

My goal was to make a small number of miniatures cast in resin or metal that I could sell on eBay. I have neither the time nor inclination to make hundreds of minis for a Kickstarter. Profit is also not a factor for me. I have no equipment save a laptop, no training in 3D art, no talent for green stuff sculpting, and no budget. Yay me.

My first software tool was Sculptris. The advantage of Sculptris is that it is very intuitive and very free. It's an excellent tool for someone to learn with. It also does organic shapes very well. I can knock out a sculpture of a person's head, no problem. Clothing, muscles, etc, all work great. The downside is that does not do rigid shapes AT ALL. When I import primitives to use for belt buckles, buttons, etc, they tend to distort as time goes on, even if I am not manipulating them directly. Sculptris also doesn't allow for rigging a skeleton, fusing shapes, or measuring scale. The software automatically adds new polygons depending on how detailed you want your shape to be, which is a double-edged sword. It's nice when you want to add detail, but you spent a LOT of time clicking the reduce tool to lower your triangle count. Keeping a low poly count is very important because a more complex model takes longer to load, slows down the computer, and results in larger file sizes when you export to STL.

Sculptris is also very, very bad at deleting unused bits. You basically need to reduce your poly count to the minimum and then use the "Smooth" function. It is very laborious. You also run into problems if tiny "artifacts" or imperfections start to form. If you are reducing or folding a piece and you see any needle-like projections or dimples start to form, you must immediately stop and re-assess. Once these little things start to show up it is basically impossible to get rid of them. I've found that the best way to do Sculptris is to make separate components for arms, legs, hands, heads, etc and then combine them all into a single model. Trying to make the model as one object and then twist it into the pose you want is not going to succeed.

Sculptris is good at stuff like this:

picture

The problem? How do I know if the subtle details of his beard will show up in the final print? How do I know if his eyes, or nose, or anything else is the right size? I don't. More on that later.

The second thing I tried was Blender. Again, free is good. The problem with Blender is that it is the most bafflingly complex and non-intuitive thing I've ever seen. There's no way I can use Blender to knock out a human figure. Not going to happen. I just don't have the expertise. But after I few hours learning I could use it to produce angular objects like firearms. My plan is that I will sculpt all my soft, organic shapes in Sculptris, then import the .OBJ into Blender, where I will add the guns and swords and other rigid bits. I like to say that using Blender to sculpt a pistol is a bit like using a fighter jet to pick up groceries. The tool is very powerful and very complex, almost to the point of overkill for what I am using it for. But it is good, once you get the hang of it, and it gets the job done.

Check out this guy. Notice how the body, hat, sleeve cuffs, etc are all soft and kind of mushy? That's Scultpris. The gun (hard, rigid, lots of sharp angles) is Blender. That's the difference. I wish I could use Blender for everything, but I don't have the time or the training.

picture

I might spend 12+ hours working on a single model (and they are relatively simple models), and so I can't say that I've saved a whole lot of time compared to what it would take if I had just tried to learn to sculpt with green stuff. I also keep finding times when I'll spend an hour working on something and think, "If this was green stuff I could have been done in five minutes." I expect that my final product will be a mix of 3d plastic and green stuff components.

The big advantage of using the software is that subtracting material is easy. Also, I get to use copy and paste to duplicate parts over and over. I think 90% of my time is spent creating my "library" of parts (heads, boots, hats, hands, etc). Once I have a part perfected, I can use it over and over very rapidly. You can do the same thing with green stuff, but it is more difficult to modify.

Once I'm finished with a model, I export it as an .OBJ into Netfabb. Blender technically should make Netfabb unnecessary, but I still like it anyway. Netfabb scans your model to see if there are any holes or other errors. If you are using Scultpris and you've taken your time it should be fine. Blender is a bit trickier, since it is possible for a shape to be "facing" the wrong way. This is an easy fix, since it basically takes two clicks to select the entire object and recalculate the normals. Netfabb also lets me scale the object in millimeters and measure my parts to make sure they are right. I then export as an .STL file. I have to send my .STLs to Dropbox because they are invariably 100+ MB. .OBJ files are much smaller, but they also don't retain information very well. I had .OBJ files that looked great in Netfabb, but when I mailed them to the manufacturer, they told me the scale was off. Not sure what's going on there. .STL files are the way to go.

So this brings me to my next problem. I used Shapeways for my first "proof-of-concept" prints. By that I mean, I printed some models just to see how they would turn out and reassure myself that it could in fact be done. The problem with Shapeways is that they have a fancy Objet printer, but I am told that they do not use the highest quality materials that it needs. So the outputs, even at the finest detail settings, have a rough and unpleasant surface that is unsuitable for casting in resin or metal. I've solicited a number of quotes from various printers who claim they can do the job. Some of them, like Fineline, offer very high resolution prints but can run $350 USD+. Again, for that price I just could have hired a green stuff sculptor to do it for me. As with all things in life, you get what you pay for… I am going to experiment with using Fineline for tiny bits like handguns and see how it works.

And that's where I am now. I've submitted my models to a printer and I'm waiting for the prototypes to arrive. The next step is to do some DYI resin casting with a nifty little kit I got for $50 USD on Amazon. Hopefully the prints will be of a high enough quality that I can cast them right away. I am told that even a good 3D print will often require some corrections with green stuff. I'm sure that will be an adventure in and of itself. Once I get a resin cast I'm happy with, I will use it as a master to create a metal mold. I will send pictures when I see the finished product. Actual spin-casting by a professional manufacturer is still in the far future.

So, to summarize: 3D printing is NOT a faster, easier substitute for green stuff. It has its own advantages and disadvantages. There are times when using green stuff for certain parts would be easier than trying to 3d sculpt it. You also need to carefully consider what tool you use for what purpose, since the different programs all have their strengths and weaknesses. As the advice blogs above mentioned, it is often very frustrating to try to guess what the final product will look like and then wait 2+ weeks to see how it turns out. At least green stuff gets me instant gratification, since I know exactly how it will look.

All that said and done, I know people who are making 3d sculpt Kickstarters work, and I've overcome all my obstacles to get to the prototype phase with a design I'm happy with. And if you have any training in 3d design, a bigger budget, etc. you will probably do it faster and better than I did.

Also, if anyone has any advice or sees a flaw in my process, I would appreciate it very much.

grogbro17 Feb 2014 5:21 a.m. PST

Did you buy the Smooth-On (OOMOO) products for molding and casting? I use them a lot at home. Air is your enemy…it must be destroyed!

EagleSixFive17 Feb 2014 6:40 a.m. PST

Awesome post solosam. Very informative for a newbie like me who would like to do 3D modelling.

Tgerritsen Supporting Member of TMP17 Feb 2014 9:11 a.m. PST

Interesting take from the free 3D tools perspective. As someone who has employed 3D and traditional modelers for 20 years, I know 3D people who work incredibly fast with incredible detail and traditional modelers who do the same. I think very few people will be able to download a tool and just start cranking out models. Like any creative endeavor, the more experience you have (combined with talent) the better you will get.

Your experience seems limited to free tools. In a lot of ways, you get what you pay for. Blender is a neat free tool, but I agree the interface is at best convoluted (and at worst, a disaster). I'd be curious what you'd say using commercial tools like like Mudbox, Zbrush, 3D Studio Max or Maya for a few years and compare your notes then to your notes now (though I realize expense is a factor). There are cheaper pro tools like Lightwave and Softimage.

If you were going to do this professionally, I'd expect you to bite the bullet and use professional tools. Many of these tools now have cloud subscription pricing that makes them much more affordable than the old way of dropping a few thousand dollars to pick up the tools. They all have free trials, so I'd encourage you to at least try them out and see how they compare. For modeling characters, if you want to rig them, I'd recommend 3D studio Max or Maya. If you just want to make the best organic character models, I'd recommend zbrush or mudbox.

For hard surface modeling, I've found Sketchup (also a free tool for most purposes) a pretty good match for 3D printing. I've been able to whip up objects, stands and some nice buildings in Sketchup. (It's terrible, however, for modeling characters or anything organic, though decent at viewing or exporting stl files for printing.)

I have my own deposition 3D printer that I use and have gotten some decent results. Material is a huge factor. To get the best results, you need a very high level printer (which I don't have, but have, in the past, had access to and seen the differences in what they can do). Hobby printers are neat, but just not up to snuff for all purposes yet. Anything with underhangs or requiring supports is going to look rough.

I've made some stuff that, once painted, you can't tell they were 3D printed, and other stuff that looks pretty rough. How you model is a big factor in this- and that is very much a learning curve with lots of trial and error.

Agreed that Netfabb is a great tool. It's terrific for fixing problems in your model.

CorSecEng17 Feb 2014 9:45 a.m. PST

I use sketchup for all my laser cut kit designs. It's has it quirks. I have a love hate relationship with it. Even the protools don't really do what it does in some areas. Certainly not as fast. It has taken me several years to find combinations of plugins that allow me to do something as simple as the curved surface of a boat. It gets tricky trying to pull the flat geometry out of it after it's done as well. Very annoying and it still crashes a lot when doing it. It's also not best suited for the skinning work that I do because small details are all but impossible to do in it. It's a limit of my technique and I should probably switch that portion to corel draw or inkscape. However, I'm an engineer not a vector artist and I can't really get my head around those programs enough to do it.

I'd be curious to see what Makerbots new laser scanner can do. It might be easier to do a single model in green stuff and then scan it in order to get the manipulation and other benefits of 3D design. Easier to scan it and import the cloud into blender so you can move it around into 3 or 4 poses then it is to do it over or cast it and modify the physical object.

That said, TGerritsen is correct that an experienced 3D modeler with the correct tools is probably 300 times faster then you. I have probably 3000+ hours of design time in sketchup. I can replicate work that took several hours 2 years ago in a few mins now. there is one REALLY annoying thing that no one built a plugin for but the pro version has. I'd speed up a lot if I could interest components with other components. That would make the annoying tab creation process a lot easier/faster. I will be lightening fast once I sit down and learn how to program my own plugins. However, I barely have time to design let alone learn a programing language and experiment with it.

Crusoe the Painter17 Feb 2014 2:18 p.m. PST

Sculptris is basically a tech demo for what may eventually end up in Zbrush5.

But you will still need to sculpt 3-up to easily capture the detail.

Also, although you can carve bits off to make them reusable, the nature of the sculpt may limit it. Usually issues with limb posing, etc, as these may have been sculpted so close to the body to be unusable when reposing.

Looks like PP has jumped on the digital bandwagon. Watch for some very nice zbrush work.

link

link

Personal logo EccentricTodd Sponsoring Member of TMP17 Feb 2014 5:15 p.m. PST

Subtle detailed can be a little tricky. I have created some of the tools I use to cut my molds, which are scaled up to the figure they will create. (well, it's just a cylinder with a half sphere on the end to round it off) If the detail is smaller than the bit, you need to upscale. I don't have experience with 3D printing, but if I were to build a cylinder,I would go about two to three times the diameter to the layer thickness or the X/Y resolution, whichever is large. That should give you some idea as to what is too small.

Sorry - only verified members can post on the forums.