"dumb enough form understandng rsian inpections!" Topic

Can someboy like this!
. In simple words what the hel this means.
flag wise?
regiments involed til not mr. kwow it a. grts serg joel

I think you want to know how the Russian inspections worked, how regiments were assigned, and what were their flags. If I understand the questions, then ….

Good articles in English on the orgainzation and function of Russian Inpsections:
link
link

If you have Russian, for the period 1706-1806, the basic Russian legislation was ПСЗ №17606 от 3.XII.1796, which can be found here:
link
(The rather few amendments can be found with the indices.)

The assignment of regiments to inspections is also described here, in Mr. Conrad's excellent translation of the Viskovatov:
link

The basics of flag issuance are also found in the Viskovatov, and here is Mr. Conrad's translation:
link
The illustraion numbers there called out correspond by number to the illustrations here, in the original Russian text:
listat.ru/T09/T09_01.htm
listat.ru/T09/T09_02.htm
listat.ru/T09/T09_03.htm
listat.ru/T09/T09_04.htm
listat.ru/T09/T09_05.htm
listat.ru/T09/T09_06.htm
listat.ru/T09/T09_07.htm
listat.ru/T09/T09_08.htm

Some more detailed discussion, with some nice color illustrations, can be found in Russian here, by the Russian Center of Vexillology and Heraldry:
link
Abbreviated text, but some color illustrations:
derzava.ru/simvolika/1812

Amicalement,
- Alexandre

There he goes again.

gents ,
thanks for this info
Some thimes i get the question ansered i asked the right way !
Just short and straight to the point.
many thanks again serg joe

serg joe, if you can read the answers how come you can't type the questions?

Dear sir,
Reading and listing to english is some thing totaly different, maybe this wil clear up some "smoke"! grt serg joe

serg joe, not really. Your command of the English language is good enough that you were able to research and resurrect the "The Russians afraid of Napoleon at the Beressina?" thread from 2009, recognising that it was relevant to another thread you started. The fact remains however that when you post a question or reply you can barely string two coherent words together. I am not criticising you, I just find this discrepancy to be a bit unusual.

dear tofee? What? grts serg joe

The Russians are a tough nut, especially if one does not read Russian. Two particular problems I've experienced:

1. Flags. Viskovatov via Conrad's translation gives data on which Russian inf. regiments received the Model 1803 flag and when, but one may notice that not all regiments are listed, which means that not all regiments received this flag. The others persevered through the period with either their old 1798 issue flags, or the Model 1800. As far as I have been able to find out, no records exist on which regiments kept 1798 and which 1800, except in the Model 1803 notes where it mentions what model was replaced by the 1803 model.

2. Miters. A color chart is available indicating the color schemes for miters, but does not tell us which regiments were actually issued miters, or when, or when they were replaced by shakos. The info on this is VERY sketchy.

And that's just the tip of the iceberg . . .

Widowson,

Learning Russian is not so bad … and, if you are single, there are "social" benefits when you meet Russian, Ukrainian, Belarus and some Kazakh girls.

Anyway, for flags :
1. Find the name of a regiment in Russian (if you cant be sure, then post a question here at TMP)
2. Then starting here :
link
find the particular info for the regiment (change 033 in the url to 034, 035, etc. – the regiments are covered alphabetically)
3. copy/paste the text into Google translate
You will get as close as anyone in the world knows to the correct flag for each regiment for each campaign.

Amicalement,
- Alexandre

No way to ID a Russian regiment in Russian without knowing how to read Russian to begin with, so here are the names of the regiments in ENGLISH:

Tauride Grenadiers
Tchernigov
Dnieper (pretty sure these guys had model 1800 flags)
Muromsk
Iekaterinoslov Grenadiers
Moscow
Azov (pretty sure these guys had model 1800 flags)

I am concerned with the 1806-07 period for these regiments. Who had miters? What model flags did they carry?

I do like the inspection era, facings can be fun to paint. In High school I thought it would be fun to learn Russian, wish I had, but it wasn't like a course I could take.

Widowson,

I double-checked the two that you thought had gotten model 1800 flags, and found nothing (details below). What gave you the idea that these were issued? I can check again.

Please note that below I have given the inscriptins as written in the era. The spelling (and some letters) are now obsolete in modern Russian.

From the Russian Center of Vexillology and Heraldry, previously linked ….

Таврический гренадерский полк / Tavricheskiy grenaderskiy polk – received obr. 1797 on 25.iv.1798, replaced with obr. 1800 on 30.iii.1800 (these have a special disctinction, the follwing legend on blue ribbons around the eagle : "За взятiе знамя въ сраженiи противъ французовъ въ Голландiи подъ г.Бергеномъ 1799 года" / "For the capture of a flag in battle against the French in Holland near the city of Bergen in 1799"), replaced with obr. 1816 Saint George flags in 1824

Черниговский мушкетерский полк / Chernigovskiy mushketerskiy polk – received obr. 1797 on 3.vii.1798, replaced with obr. 1803 Saint George on 13.iv.1813 (these with the inscription "За отличiе при пораженiи и изгнанiи непрiятеля изъ пределовъ Россiи 1812 года" / "For disctinction in the defeat and expulsion of the enemy from Russia in 1812"), possibly changed colors per Zvegintsov in 1817 [?? – I am dubious on this], next replaced during the general reorganization of the infantry in 1833

Днепровский мушкетерский полк / Dneprovskiy mushketerskiy polk – received obr. 1797 on 8.iii.1798, replaced with obr. 1803 in 1810, these were not replaced until the general reorganization of the infantry in 1833
Quick cross-check in the regimental history:
1798 – received one white, 9 color obr. 1798
1799 – lost 1 color in Holland, left with 1 white, 8 color
1802 – reduced the number of banners, the regiment left one white, 5 colored, 3 sent to storage in the local arsenal
1806-07 – lost 2 color (Golynim, Hof), left with 1 white, 3 color
1810 – granted ttwo new color, giving 1 white obr. 1798, 3 color obr. 1798 and 2 color obr. 1803
There is some inconsistency about one of the colors used in the obr. 1798 – different reports give it a "citron", "light fawn" and "yellow" … I suppose a rather more washed out looking yellow than usual.

Муромский мушкетерский полк / Muromskiy mushketerskiy polk – received obr. 1797 on 30.vii.1798, replaced with obr. 1816 in 1824

Екатеринославский гренадерский полк / Yekaterinoslavskiy grenaderskiy polk – received obr. 1797 in 1798 (these were supposed to have used коричневый/brown color, but were reported in inspection reports as having used темно-абрикосовый/dark-apricot in place of the brown), replaced with obr. 1816 in 1824

Московский мушкетерский полк / Moskovskiy mushketerskiy polk – received obr. 1797 on 29.x.1798, replaced with obr. 1816 in 1824

Азовский мушкетерский полк / Azovskiy mushketerskiy polk – received obr. 1797 on 15.xi.1798, replaced with obr. 1803 in 1809, these were not replaced until the general reorganization of the infantry in 1833
A rather detaled article by Adolenko ….
link
The Azovskiy were supposed to awarded Saint George banners per an order of late 1805. Then it became understood that they had lost 4 colored obr. 1798 at Austerlitz and so the award of Saint George banners was cancelled. Actually, one of these was saved and hidden by prisoners, so the French only thought they had caputred 3. In any case, for excellence in the Swedish war, they wee granted 4 replacements obr. 1803 in late 1809.

Amicalement,
- Alexandre

P.S. If you want to google search with the regiment names in Russian, try adding знамя or знамена to get "flag(s)" results.

Widowson,

Mitres are worse than flags.

Jonathan Gingerich keeps his Russian regimental distinctions webpage pretty much updated with new info (I see, for example, notes from rather recent relics found at Austerlitz), and it's in ….. English!

See "Retention of Miters" here :
link

Amicalement,
- Alexandre

So for flags carried in 1805 – 1807, we get:

Tauride Grenadiers – Model 1800 w/ inscription
Tchernigov – Model 1798
Dnieper – Model 1798 (until 1810, then got 3 x 1803 colored)
Muromsk – Model 1798
Iekaterinoslov Grenadiers – Model 1798 (but w/ apricot cross)
Moscow Musketeers – Model 1798
Azov – Model 1798 (Model 1803 St. George in 1809)

Not much variety, there. But thanks for the info.

The facing color chart does not specify grenadiers, as far as I can tell. This is rarely an issue, except in the case of the "Moscow" regiments, one musketeer and one grenadier.

Some clue as to miters may be found in sources where the dates of shako issue are specified. IIRC, this is early stuff, sometimes specifying when the bicorn hats were replaced. Don't have my notes with me.

Widowson,

Per the sources linked, the award in 1809 to the Azovskiy musketeers was not of Saint George flags, just 4 colored flags obr. 1803.

The interesting point to me is that two of the regiments fought with fewer-than-typical flags for some time. It depends how many bases or command stands per regiment, but if a battalion was missing both flags (in the examples, all first battalions would have at least the white flag), then they would temporarily use a "plain flag" for tactical location/alignment.

The Azovskiy musketeers lost four colored flags at Austerlitz, so at least one battalion had to use 1 plain flag after that, likely both the second and third battalions, with the grenadier or 1st battalion using the remaining 1 white and 1 colored flags. I do not think the color of the plain flag was specified. So, I would think that after Austerlitz for the years indicated "plain" was either inspection color (straw) or regimental color (red – my own guess, just a guess) for both – or by battalion color (yellow for second and red for third battalion). It might have been even worse : plain maybe meant plain undyed rough peasant cloth (a kind of middle gray with a yellowish tone). The wording "plain clothe" is used to describe recruit temporary and opolchenie/militia uniforms of this material.

I have no data, but I think "plain" also meant : no edging, fringing, markings, etc. and no finial on top of the flagstaff, which might even have been unpainted raw wood, instead of painted in the straw color for the regiment's woodwork in these years. This was a "mark of shame" kind of thing.

Similarly, after Golymin, the Dneprovskiy musketeers would have been using :
1st grenadier battalion : 1 white + 1 color
2nd and 3rd musketeer battalions : 1 color each
If your usual Russian command stand shows both flags, you might remove one for these battalions.

Amicalement,
- Alexandre

Widowson,

At Mr. Gingerich's tables:
link

If you are looking at the table "Line Regiments June 8, 1802 – November 19, 1807" ….
"Moscow Gr". is in the 2nd line (Smoelnsk Inspection) and note 16 – grenadiers
"Moscow" is in the 4th line (Kiev Inspection) and note 17 – musketeers

Or do not understand your question?

Amicalement,
- Alexandre

Alexandre,

Many thanks. More amusing still is the fact that one of these regiments was to be issued honorific St. George standards, presumably for some great act of heroism, when it was discovered that they had lost some of their old flags, whereupon the St. George standards were recalled!

That must be an interesting story, and a great frustration to the regiment and its colonel!

Widowson,

Yes, for distinction at Schφngrabern earlier in the campiagn. This would have been the first army award of Saint George flags, had it occurred.

I think Aleksandr reacted more than Catherine and Paul to the loss of flags, and the ones lost at Austerlitz were the first lost in his reign. The only flag lost in 1812 by the Russians was that of the recruits of the depot battalion (i.e., minus their grenadiers) of the Revel'skiy infantry – lost at Gross Eckau to …. Prussians.

Anyway, if your wanted "interesting" flags among your list of regiments, you surely found it. I think most likely was plain red on straw painted staffs. But if you did ugly peasant yellowed-gray rectangles on raw wood staffs, really shaming the poor Azovskiy regiment, I don't think anyone could say you were wrong.

Pretty cool either way.

Amicalement,
- Alexandre

I am more interested now in the Vladimir regiment, with their purple and lt. crimson miters. Do you know anything about their flags in the 1805-07 period?

Widowson,

Владимирский мушкетерский полк / Vladimirskiy mushketerskiy polk / Vladimir musketeer regiment

Named for this city :
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir

On 15 November 1798 granted flags obr. 1797, 1 with white cross and the corners halved blue & crimson, and with the remainder having a dark blue cross with the corners halved crimson and white. White painted poles.

Flags were not replaced until 1822.

- Sasha

dear tofee? What? grts serg joe

Exactly. We cannot understand what you are trying to ask.

Using polite speech: Dear Sir, we cannot be of assistance to you if we cannot understand what you are asking about.

To paraphrase a movie: English, motherer, can you write it!?!

That american movie, not reckanizable as anglish, long times.
what you question again plez?

That americanish movie, not reckanizable as anglish, long times.

what you question again plez?

Funny thing about this chap Serg . He is clearly having a laugh at us, but he does produce some very good responses and message threads……

Keep it up mate!